Do 'average' kids who work well get overlooked? Teachers perspective welcome.

[YukonHo]

Dd is a hard worker, she tries her best, is good in class. Her teachers words not mine. She is in a class that spreads across 2 years. Her class has four 'sets' lets call them a,b,c,d, a being top etc. she is in B set. Most of her year are in a.

DH and I are both fairly academic, both with degrees, DH has two. We have always been interested involved parents where work is concerned. I help out at the school several times a month and so know the other kids, and to me there is no clear reason why she is in the lower of the two sets for that year. I am worried it is because she IS such an easy kid to teach that she gets missed in favour of the strugglers and g&t kids in her class.

Fwiw, she is doing well on levels, she's just started y4 and is on 3b for maths and 3a for English. BUT this is a below average achievement for her year, and I think she is capable of being at least as good as the others in her class. I'm not expecting miracles, nor I believe she is a 'genius' but after parents evening tonight I'm left with the impression that because she's doing OK they are not trying to spur her on further...unlike the very clever kids in her class. (Her head actually said 'well she's on 3b and that's where she should be at the end of the year.' This is all very well but you don't stop stretching a child just because they have hit the average right??)

So, am I being a pushy parent or should I have cause for concern that they are not pushing her?

[YukonHo]

Really nkf? I'm not making a fuss about this at school, I've said nothing to dd, no one but the people on here has an inkling if what I think or feel on the matter. I spend my own time every week trying to improve things for teachers that i like and respect. I believe that teachers these days are expected to achieve the impossible, which is why I help out. All I'm doing is observing that under these pushed conditions perhaps the quieter kids are being overlooked for those struggling (who deservedly need more time) and the high flyers.

I'm not suggesting the school do anything about it, I'm merely wondering if DH and I need to bridge that gap. How does any of that mean schools shouldn't have parent helpers?

[YukonHo]

Shoe whore. Tbh it's not in feasible to me that they are in different sets. They are assessed and i'm sure much of it depends on how they do in the test on the day. The thing I am most peeved by is their lack of any real plan to take her forward from here. It was the. 'she's good and she works hard, lets let her coast' impression I got that annoyed me.
This thread has helped me calm down from that and realise that it might well be strategic on the teachers behalf and that if we do a little extra (if she wants to, because it me if she's not enjoying learning then there's no point trying to convince her...but she does, cause she's asked us) then if she has what it takes she'll be able to rise.

[YukonHo]

In feasible? Bloody autocorrect! Unfeasible.

[shebird]

I could have written your post OP (in fact I did a while ago)!
My DD sounds just like yours and I share your concerns that it seems like the brightest are pushed to achieve more while those in the middle are left to plod along. Unfortunately it is all about targets. Schools focus on the top set because they have to ensure that those who demonstrated in Y2 SATS that they should achieve level 5 or above in Y6 actually reach this level. So instead of pushing all pupils to reach their potential the focus is on demonstrating to OFSTED that those who scored well in Y2 reach their target in Y6. Sad but true.

[ShoeWhore]

Well actually that's not true any more shebird - schools are expected to show that all pupils make at least expected progress if not better than expected progress.

I'm not sure I would interpret what the school said as let her coast though. Perhaps they meant, she's doing really well, making good progress, working hard, we have no concerns. Letting children coast isn't really an option, Ofsted would roast you alive.

[YukonHo]

Ok shoewhore, that's good to know. Possible misperception on my part. Will still keep an eye though.

[Snowbility]

My dcs are the quiet average types - however ds is getting a great deal of feedback from his teacher this year - the feedback feeds his motivation and he is consistently working harder, I expect the teacher is getting a lot from his response to praise and encouragement. He explained to me in the past that his teachers didn't notice when he worked hard so there never seemed any point in doing more than the minimum.
I know that lots of the kids do extra work at home with their parents and tutors - the so called G&T kids like to talk a lot about the extra work they have to do to maintain their special status.

[Periwinkle007]

Snowbility - that is really nice your DS is getting lots of feedback and praise, my daughter would love that. She is desperate to please the teachers (not her parents interestingly enough - lovely behaviour in school but not at home - usual story)

I don't understand how people fit in lots of extra work. My kids have some workbooks each which occasionally they ask to do some of at weekends or in the holidays if the weather is rubbish and they fancy something a bit different to their games (they like work oddly) but we could never fit in organised extra work regularly or anything like that. I have enough trouble fitting in one after school activity a week due to being disorganised.

[ipadquietly]

Ofsted look for 'good' progress for ALL children.
Teachers haven't the luxury of overlooking ANY children.
One child is as important in PROGRESS terms as the next.

[Snowbility]

I think the idea the idea that a teacher treats every child the same is a fairy tale - we have all been to school, some of us have been parent helpers and have witnessed it, lots of us see the same kids get picked for everything, kids report the same thing. I have not complained but that's not to say I have not noticed.

[Snowbility]

People fit in extra tuition by banning tv, computers etc - lots of the kids told me they were only allowed leisure time at weekends.

[Periwinkle007]

I think it is so hard for teachers. When my mum was teaching she would end up with in any one class of30 children, a couple of special needs children who often have recommendations that they should get their own rewards for doing x y or z, then there are normally at least 5 who still struggle with the language and then probably another 5-10 who are EAL but who are either very fluent or coping quite well, then you have a handful who will be far and away further on than the others in the class, there will be a handful who are far and away behind the others in the class, these sometimes will include the ones who are struggling with the language but not always so you have different permutations and combinations and then you have at least a few who can't do as they are told under any circumstances, a few who are just plain naughty, one or two who might regularly hit other kids for no reason but don't have special needs, 1 who is terribly oversensitive and cries at everything, a terribly shy one, a cocky overconfident one, a couple who can't stand each other and can't sit near each other or they fight and so on. So it is easy to see how the nice, good, well behaved, try hard kids can be overlooked wherever they are on the achievement scale. BUT we still all want our children to be praised and encouraged.

[Periwinkle007]

that is such a shame if there is no leisure time in the evenings. I sometimes limit TV but if they are tired after school I don't see the harm in it, my 2 unwind best with a pile of paper and some colouring pencils. I couldn't imagine trying to get them to do work after school. getting them to do their reading is hard enough with one of them.

[ipadquietly]

I'll reiterate:

Ofsted look for 'good' progress for ALL children, in all groups (e.g. SEN, FSM, forces families)

Teachers haven't the luxury of overlooking ANY children.

One child is as important in PROGRESS terms as the next. Teachers have to be accountable for EVERY child in in their class.

[Retropear]

But if they matured late or had a crap year 2 they're fucked ie written off at 7. Good progress from below what they're capable of at 7 isn't actually that great.

Basically if they don't get 3s at 7 they're written off as regards being pushed.If they get the average,that is all anybody will expect.I have been told this by smt.

Op in answer to you I think this does happen,has/ is happening with 2 of mine.Don't give a stuff re groups but I know when my dc are being stretched- 1 isn't.Very low expectations.

Fuck all you can do sadly unless you want to become "that" parent and a major pita(which I am).I regularly ask to see work,levels,targets etc.

[ipadquietly]

That is rubbish retro. A child attaining 3c (recognised as 3b by Raiseonline) at 7 will be expected to attain a 5b in Year 6. That will be EXPECTED progress. Schools are now expected to make good progress; therefore children who attain a level 3 in Year 2 will only make good progress if they get 5a/L6 in Y6.

An 'average child in Y2 (2B) will be expected to attain a 4B in Y6. This, again, is EXPECTED progress. That would not be in the school's best interest as far as Ofsted is concerned. it would be much better is a child who was 2B in Y2 attained a 4A in Y6. That would be GOOD progress. Ofsted would be happy. Therefore, the teacher in Y3 through to Y6 have to try to accelerate the child's progress.

It is completely untrue that schools do not push 'average' children. Ofsted sifts through the data with a fine toothcomb.

Personally, I think the broader curriculum is more important. IMVHO this constant pushing against academic criteria is preparing the less academic child for ten years of ever decreasing self esteem and the constantly reinforced message that they're a failure.

[Snowbility]

Still not convinced. Lots of shit goes down that Ofsted would slam if they noticed on the day. After questioning teacher on dcs levels at at dcs first school, we were told the teacher accidentally inflated them the year before - I guess Ofsted wouldn't be too impressed...

The difference between year 6 and the rest of juniors is both startling and unfortunate. I'd like to see Sats measure the teaching through out the school but it doesn't come across that way.
This year while ds has a good teacher, dd has a Year 6 teacher who threatens punishment constantly for any lack of compliance, no art as yet, extra classes for those who have fallen behind - that exists for both, but only this year and it will all end after the Sats, when no formal teaching will take place - balanced curriculum anyone? Ofsted don't know shit about what goes on in schools or maybe they choose not to. It's not a great year and I'm not very impressed by the methods involved in achieving results for the sake of the Ofsted God.

[Retropear]

I totally disagree Ipad.

It's obvious at our school that they have high priority groups ie SEN,the disruptive,the top few and in particular those at risk of not getting 4s.

The quiet,average kids with average year2 results can go hang.

Many parents get hacked off.It happens,it is happening to my child.You may not like that and in paper it doesn't but reality for many is a very different thing.

I was a teacher so can identify a coasting child not being pushed a mile off but I don't have to,my own dc is one.

[Retropear]

Oh and the amount of parents who quietly tutor in one way or other to remedy this in a pretty average area I find quite shocking.

[Snowbility]

My dcs are summer born so I would they started at a fairly low level - at some stage you'd expect them to mature maturely and potentially leap ahead if they were capable. Stats are bullshit at an individual level.

[Snowbility]

I agree retro pear - tutoring is big business - better teaching my arse. Parents don't allow their kids to fail here. All the teacher has to say is your child can't do something and whoosh parent fixes it!

[Retropear]

And such schools benefits from the covert tutoring,panic cramming and 11+ prep in year 5/6.

[ipadquietly]

The 'average' group is still a 'group' that Ofsted would look at, retro.
Data is sorted into groups, and any low achieving 'groups' will stick out like a sore thumb in schools' data.

All schools will be looking at 'group' data - for SEN; for children who've been in the school since YR; for new arrivals; for EAL; for looked after children; for FSM.
'The average children will not be overlooked in these groups.

[Retropear]

I have actually had the head say we don't have to push your child because of said Sats results.

Some children are summer born,some are immature and some have crap teaching in year 2.All are down the swaney as regards getting 5s in year 6- regardless of ability.

[Retropear]

Many able children who didn't get level 3 Sats won't fit into any group.