Please talk to me about Steiner Schools

[DoTheBestThingsInLifeHaveFleas]

Hi there

Please bear with me, I may ramble....

There is a Steiner School opening near to where I live. It will open when DD is due to start school. I do not know much about them apart from the prospectus information and an informal chat with the headmaster. It will be a free school funded by the local government. Initially I like the ethos, but do have some concerns.

My DP and I were both state educuated and feel massively let down by the system and that it really prevented us from making more of our lives. Only our wonderful parents support ensured we are where we are today, and although we both take personal responsibility for our actions, we want better for our DD. I really do not want her going to a school where the kids make you feel that 'learning is for geeks and saddos' and that she has to be naughty and rude just to try and fit in (Yes this is what I felt I had to do and until I started to behave badly to try and fit in life at school was unbearable. And yes I am bitter!!!) or aspiring to be a WAG when she grows up. DP was the other extreme and one of the ones who made my life miserable. He is a bright and intelligent person, and was bored and under stretched at school and so started trouble and distracted others. Again we both take personal responsibility for our actions, but really at 12 - 16 years old it's hard to understand the impact you are having on your life.

So anyway, do we go for a private school, which will be very hard financially (although a sacrifice we are willing to make) and also have its pitfalls, or could a Steiner school be the right move? Any comments welcome, thank you in advance.

[NigelYerABawbag]

That said I still want to clear up this GCSE thing - ime Steiner schools are actually very heavy on the academic pressure for older children, loads of A/A* grades are normal but not counted by league tables as taken over two years, and I can quite believe the claims about Oxbridge admissions. I know 4 of my classmates went to Oxford or Cambridge and that wasn't untypically high.

[Lioninthesun]

I have a couple of friends who went to a local one here.. I don't think I would send DD. They are lovely but quite arrogant in their ways - not very good at listening and empathising. They also have huge gaps in their knowledge (one didn't know saline was salt water or what a Bunson burner was - he is 30 this year). Both of them are easily swayed into protesting about anything rampant on FB - GMO foods, badger culls, building on any field etc etc. They don't like listening to other opinions, which can be very frustrating.
On the positive side they are both very creative and passionate, if slightly lazy. They clearly enjoyed school. The guy is excellent at woodwork, which in this day and age is a real plus, but he doesn't want a job and so floats by working at a farm shop and picking fruit in season. The girl has taken over some of her dad's company and is happily doing things in fields with it in the summer.
If this sounds like the ideal for you go for it.
I feel they have been a bit let down by not getting qualifications and not having much structure/work ethos, but some people really hate that.

[nettlefairy]

I was educated at State (junior), then Steiner (aged 8-17) and then private Sixth form college - just to show that I've had a flavour of lots of different school styles. I personally had the most lovely, happy, inspiring time at the Steiner School I attended - it wasn't perfect but it had so much good going for it. I can't comment on some of the crazier experiences that others have experienced but I can DEFINITELY say with total conviction is that it is not true that disabled and ethnically diverse children are not allowed in the school. If you read the lectures of Rudolf Steiner it's true to say that many things he said don't translate well over time but I'd put money on the fact that if you looked at the writings (hypothetically) of the men who had laid down the foundations of our current Victorian-based State school education you would very likely be shocked by their views too. In my view, a Steiner School/teacher is only as good as the quality of their interpretation of his writings.

[Cloverer]

The difference there though is that are current state education system has changed massively from it's Victorian foundations - as new research is done, new styles become popular, things that don't work are dropped. Whether or not the first curriculum was racist is irrelevant to modern schooling. Steiner is based on the teachings of one man, it doesn't evolve over time. His views are still entirely relevant to modern Steiner education.

[gillapr]

Don't even consider a Steiner school - until you have researched thoroughly 'anthroposophy' on sites like Waldorf Critics/Quackometer and Waldorf Watch. If you agree with Steiner's (what many consider to be bizarre and worrying beliefs and approaches to education) that's great. But if you don't - you will be making huge mistake which will be expensive and stressful to put right.

I only wish the information had been on-line before deciding to send my daughter to a Steiner Waldorf (SW) establishment.

At first I sent my child to nearby private school, she thrived at its nursery and I assumed it would be a natural transition into the pre-prep. It was not. She had a dreadful start to school life, slapped and punched by the one other child in the class as well as horrendous pressure put on her to learn etc.

After looking at other local schools, I stumbled across SW education. I am now deeply embarrassed to admit that as well education (MBA), worldly and mature parent (had my daughter in my late 40's) I fell for the creative, tree-hugging hype. Seduced by the calmness of the environment, pretty baskets of shells, ribbons and cones to play with, the smell of bread baking and the gentle pastel colours painted on the walls etc. At the time, there was no other place I wanted her to be educated in.

I had absolutely no idea of the bizarre nature of anthroposophy, I couldn't even say the word. For the first few months it seemed a good choice but as time progressed I became more and more concerned over some of the teaching styles and practices. It was only after I got a letter saying my child would be required to jump over a fire (yes true!) at one of their odd festivals they celebrate, that I started to research the true nature of SW schools. I then came across the websites mentioned above. By this time, she was entering SW Year 1.

Already a fluid reader with good writing skills, she was not allowed to use this skills at all. She was not allowed books to read or permitted to use normal pencils. Instead she was made to go back to the most basic of lessons and use huge crayons to write with. When I complained about this, I was told that she would only be allowed to use pencils, as and when the rest of the class was ready. There was only three other children in the Y1 at the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


She could only use three colours of paint in her art and when a few other children were less than kind to her, I was told it was just 'childish' pranks and she should learn to deal with it. She was reduced to tears by the teacher because she refused to write the letter 'm' in the prescribed four stroke Steiner way and was devastated when made to sit alone at the back of a class of 12 pupils. Why? When challenged the teacher said it was his class and he could do what he wanted!

Once you understand ' anthroposophy' and Steiner's beliefs - these somewhat bizarre teaching practices will become very clear.

I decided to take her out of the school, but because she was so far behind academically I needed to employ a private tutor to bring her up to the most basic of standards- costing me over £1500. Also, she was so far behind that she was placed a year below her peers when she re-entered mainstream school.

I was so angry with the school because I felt conned by the 'so-called' innovative, creative and child orientated promises made to me by the school, I refused to pay the outstanding fees. In addition, I had serious concerns over her general health and safety, for instance, the classroom was infested with wild mice, which ran over the desks that children ate their lunch on. The school threatened me with debt-collectors, but when I said I wanted the matter to go before a small claims court, so it could be put on public record the disgraceful nature of the school and the appalling standard of teaching, the Trustee's backed down.

I can tell you from first-hand experience that SW schools are not what they claim. Only being allowed to use a limited number of colours in art and copying everything off a blackboard is the exact opposite of 'creative'. The bizarre religion that Steiner invented underpins everything that is said and done at these schools. It may, as you will no doubt be told, not taught to the children directly but it is done by stealth.

It was a truly dreadful experience. My dd has now been at mainstream state school for one year and is thriving and doing incredibly well. She tells me she hated the SW school and I looking back on it I can see why she would often beg me not to take her to school in the morning and come home bored and frustrated, desperate just to play with normal toys and paint pictures full of colour.

[formica5]

My friends who have finished steiner schools have gone on to do the baccalaureate - and then higher education.

Be prepared, they don't really do formal letter learning/reading until about 7 years. This is in line with other countries though.

[sweetiepie1979]

Oh god I wouldn't even consider it. A teacher in a private school and often gave to pick up the pieces from kids who went to Steiner for a while. They have little focus and no commitment. That's only my experience though. Good luck making your decision.

[ShotgunNotDoingThePans]

Another Steiner refugee here. I'm afraid I was also taken in by the aesthetics, seeming gentleness and sheer loveliness of it all.
Happened about 10 years ago, which was pre-internet days (for me, at least).
We lasted 3 years.
I think the link mrz posted, though wordy, does give a good summing-up of the whole charade thing.

One thing that struck me as I became more disenchanted was that there was a kind of cognitive dissonance thing going on amongst a lot of the parents (and some older children, sadly). They knew the things they were experiencing and seeing were unacceptable/unfair/downright dangerous, but supressed their disquiet - even publicly laughing it off - because it didn't chime with the belief system they were immersed in.

What confirms my scepticism is the fact that anything you read that gives a negative account, whether a simple posting on a chat forum or a detailed, intellectually-based treatise, always comes up with the same experiences. The approach is systematic and ingrained, and wherever you go in the world you will come across the same cultish behaviours and ways of dealing with possible threats to the way of life.

(Parents to head of Council: 'we need to erect a perimeter fence so that the children can't wander onto the main road and any Tom, Dick or Harry can't wander in.'
Reply: 'the angels will keep the children safe.'

[gillapr]

The other thing to add to ShotgunNotDoingThePan comment is that after a while, it is too late to do anything about it - you are stuck there because your child is so far behind academically and it is impossible for them to catch-up, regardless of how much money you can spend on a private tutor.

The SW Year 1 - starts when a child is seven. I had to put a strong case forward to the Head Teacher (HT) of my dd's new school that it would be emotionally damaging for her to go straight into Y4 when she had no knowledge of any of the key subject areas - he agreed to put her in Y3, which was not such a big transition for her as she could already read and write. Other HT's may not be so sympathetic and children who have been immersed in SW since KG would even struggle to cope with Y2 work when they are seven.

[Tamarandave]

As a former pupil, I can honestly say that Waldorf/Steiner education, together with the awful teachers and the constant bullying and abuse ruined many peoples lives. Both children and parents who raised concerns
Forget the smooth propaganda on YouTube etc, it is not worth the gamble sending your child to a Steiner school. The risks are huge
The same issues that crop up in the UK waldorf schools are present in other parts of the world as well. I would never send one of my children to a Steiner School but would rather let them read books at home.
Sadly my experiences are not unique. I went to 2 different Steiner schools and have subsequently met ex pupils who were also badly bullied and/or sexually abused by staff. I have met people who attempted suicide as adults due to their experiences in Steiner Schools. There are also people who enjoyed themselves and have done well but I suspect they would have done well wherever they went.
At my second Steiner school a pupil was given permanent brain damage and left as a vegetable when another jumped on his head repeatedly. Other pupils were victimised with homophobic bullying, racist bullying, and bullying based on disability. For example, a very vulnerable girl with MS was called spastic and imitated mercilessly and bullied by all the girls, most of the boys and some of the teachers. They obviously did nothing to stop the bullying. What tended to happen was that even kids who were not the ringleaders all joined in to avoid being victims themselves. Teachers also did this as they sought popularity with the bullies who were invariably the most popular, the fastest runners, best at sports etc.
Other pupils were bullied due to minor disabilities or unusual appearance.
So what new...bullying happens in most schools. Well here is the problem:
Anthropology views bullying as both Karma and that the soul of the disabled person is impure. As as result nothing is done to stop the bullying despite.
With a heavy emphasis on Greek, Roman and Norse history and myths/legends, a subliminal message is taught that only being white and of an athletic and attractive physic is the goal. Anyone not fitting this is an outcast.
Class Teachers who take the morning 1.40hr lesson each morning remain the same for classes 1-8. So if they bully or are otherwise bad teachers your DC will be lumbered with them for 8 years potentially
Bright students have no place in Steiner School, since reading, maths and science are held back, neglected or dismissed as unimportant according to some staff. Furthermore since many teachers for upper school, GCSE and A level stages are not properly qualified to teach their subject, bright students have no one to bring them on.
Steiner Teachers in my school were often unqualified for the subject they taught. Due to shortage of teachers (low wages) and the fact that teachers didn't have to have a PGCE, only the Steiner teachers course. Some Steiner teachers would never be up to teaching in a state school. Many are overgrown hippies and tend to be egoists in my experience. There are a few really nice teachers, but most are a nasty, ragtag bunch of loony lefties with no moral standards (dont be fooled by the nice trees and pretty picture you will be shown on open day)
Anyone under the impression that morality or being nice to each other is taught or encouraged in Steiner schools has been misled. On the one hand there is the quasi Christian and mystical side in the books, yet most of the the staff and the enthusiastic anthroposophists are left wing and liberal in moral outlook and this permeates the world-view children are provided.
Also quite a number of kids in Steiner Schools have been excluded from mainstream schools or have been troublemakers, but since their parents can pay, they are welcomed since they can pay full fees and Steiner education is not cheap. Money talks so the bad eggs find a home, but the good kids suffer academically and psychologically because of these imported, often disruptive, bullying kids.
Bullying is far worse in Steiner Schools for various reasons.
Lack of supervision in break times. Teachers were often smoking behind an outbuilding instead. Lack of an authority figure to whom teachers are accountable if they do nothing (ie no head) There is also the issue of Karma in that teachers believe it is the child's necessary path to be bullied or even the child's fault for actions in a previous life. Lack of accountability to Parent Governors. In Steiner Schools, the teachers together with a few prominent supporters/anthroposophists (college of teachers) are in charge of decisions and staff issues.
Basically the way Steiner schools are set up provides the ideal setting for incompetent, immoral, abusive and irresponsible teachers to succeed and be protected. In the 1980's 90's a paedophile was allowed to remain working at a Steiner school for years and rather than being held accountable was demoted from teacher to caretaker. Many students were targeted at school and in their own homes since he befriended parents and co-teachers

[RuthiMee]

As a few others have already mentioned, it depends on the school. Some are more radical than others.
I do find it very sad that people chose to just stare right at the stuff they don't understand or believe and be freaked out by it. Anthroposophy is quite an odd thing to comprehend or accept, bit like quantum mechanics or existentialism but it doesn't mean it's quackery.
Also what I would say is that most people on this thread seem to be just looking at the 'bonkers' stuff and not the beautiful stuff and the benefits children get from it in comparison to these fact-cramming factories we know as mainstream schools who follow the national curriculum which is about as appropriate to child development as someone expecting a cat to organise a wedding!
Steiner schools are a bit wacky with some of their reasoning, but what the children do and experience is amazing and age-appropriate. The Waldorf curriculum makes sense to the child.
All this panic and disgust about Steiner beliefs in reincarnation and spiritual journeys etc seems silly when there are so many faith schools over the UK with equally bonkers beliefs. My main point is that Steiner teachers are trained in Anthroposophy BUT this aspect is not taught TO the children. Unless it is a faith Steiner school then the children are not taught about any spiritual quackery. My daughter has attended a Steiner school for 6 years now, and she simply has developed into a very open-minded lover of nature. Please check out my blog if you are interested. Hope this helps! ruthiemee.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/first-blog-post/

[GreenGoth89]

A friend of mine went to one and she said that she felt incredibly isolated and like she didn't understand the real world when she left school. She also was angry she wasn't give support to learn to read at school until the age of 7. I like some of the overlap with Montessori but overall I feel Steiner schools are lost in the past.

[WhattodoSue]

Ruthimee I read your blog. It is great you are happy with your school. But surely you don't think that your description of your child describes no other child at mainstream schools around the country? There are many children like your daughter. She goes to a school she is happy in. So do many many children. We may not always agree 100% with how schools work, but it is healthy to think about what doesn't work and how you might stimulate change.

[mrz]

"Anthroposophy is quite an odd thing to comprehend or accept, bit like quantum mechanics or existentialism but it doesn't mean it's quackery. "



http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2013/06/what-the-steiner-waldorf-school-movement-did-not-want-you-to-read.html

[RuthiMee]

So have you read all of this article "mrz"? I'd be very interested in what you think of it's contents or do you just read this stuff and believe it?

There are so many articles flying around written by Steiner waldorf/anthroposophy critics such as the well known con historian Peter Staudenmaier who has written so much nonsense about Steiner teaching that is opening proven as untrue.
I have been a parent at a Steiner Waldorf school for 6 years and the content of this article just baffles me. The things Perra talks about such as the close relationship with the teachers and indoctrinating the parents just makes me laugh. Talking like parents and children attending the school are zombies with non brain! Over the last 6 years I have had discussions with teachers and trustees who consider themselves Anthroposophists where I do not necessarily agree with their ideas but they have not cast me aside and neither have they tried to indoctrinate me! How is it any different from someone believing in ideas of Christianity, Budda or Kant or Heidegger! We don't all have to agree! Again I must point out that my children are not taught Anthroposophical ideas, Perra may suggest that it is 'hidden' in the songs they sing but I just find that hilarious on the same level as when I was told as a kid that if you played a bros record on slow speed it told you to kill yourself! haha how can a beautiful poem about nature damage a child?
I used to teach in a Catholic school and I was quite disturbed how the younger kids were guilt-tripped into taking part in the holy communion and ended up very awkwardly taking a piece of "christ's flesh' following the spoken words from the bible- ‘I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.’-- if that's not quackery then I don't know what is!? But like I said, we all can't agree on everything, it's what makes the word interesting!
Although all this exaggerated, dramatized information, without actual evidence (I think if there were evidence for such accusations a pedophilia then surely it would be investigated by the police) can be useful ammunition for the Steiner-haters and people tend to naturally believe the worst and panic…. it doesn’t tell us any more about Steiner schools today than the history of churches collaborating with the Nazis tells us about Catholic or Protestant schools today! Has the book has been closed on why the Catholic church’s dodgy political history over the 20th century?

I also must point out that Steiner’s views on race do not necessarily mean that Steiner teachers or schools are racist any more than the Bible’s racist, misogynist, homophobic etc views are necessarily held by teachers in C of E schools.

[RuthiMee]

Hi WhattodoSue! Thank you for reading my blog :)

It amazes me that you would take from it that I think my daughter is above any other child, I don't remember ever stating that I think children that don't attend Waldorf schools are not happy lovely creative children like mine.
If I were to write an article about how kickboxing has made my daughter confident would I then be saying that all kids who don't do kickboxing are not happy healthy children?

I think there is a lot of panic and extreme stuff about Steiner schools and not enough is said about the good stuff. The actual reason I wrote that blog (I don't know whether you noticed) was because it was the day of the very controversial SATS tests where for the first time in history parents actually protested and kept their kids off school! At no one point did I say all children should be educated in a Steiner school. My strong point in my writing was that standardised tests make kids anxious and as an X-state school primary teacher I am very passionate about protecting children's early years and allowing them to play... 4-5 year olds are expected to do a compulsory phonics screening test, I simply do not believe this is necessary. I have friends and family who's children all go to mainstream school and they are all very lovely beautiful children... I just think they all necessarily go through stressful tests and fact-cramming lessons at a very early age and I just wish they could enjoy more free time for adventure and individual exploration... childhood is so precious! :)

[mrz]

Yes I read the article and obviously the French courts also believed the author.

[mrz]

http://www.waldorfcritics.org/articles/TelegraphGilmour.html

[nanettawoman]

See worst report ever and dreadful safeguarding. reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report/provider/ELS/117631

[Roseredirish]

As a mum of two young children who attend the Steiner Academy in Exeter, I want to dispel any rubbish that's been written about the school and Steiner schools in general.
It's not for everyone, let's get that straight. If you're a parent who's hot on their child learning everything by the book and exactly when the development books say they should be learning then it's not for you. If you have your 4 year old booked into extra curricular classes to boost their learning 6 days a week it's probably not for you.
Both my children are in the kindergarten (for children in the preschool age 3 - to those age 6) and they adore it. The grounds are gorgeous, inspiring and full of green spaces, the kindi garden is huge and isn't just a concrete space. They have real trees to climb, mud to dig in and hills to explore. The classes provide lots and lots of natural toys and craft materials which are interesting yet calming at the same time, as there's not an over stimulating amount of colour and stickers all over the walls. They play dress up, paint, hide, climb, get filthy, look at books, tell stories, help to cook and clean, help each other when it comes to dressing and act out plays. The teachers are gentle and calm themselves, always ready to listen to parents despite being majorly child centred. If the teachers seem to busy with children to talk, I just email. They reply quickly. My children are not learning how to read or write yet (they encourage that at age 6 around the time their second set of teeth come through- for good reason) but they know how to prepare meals and cook, they help the teachers clean and tidy, they are extremely sociable and not just with children their exact age, they tell very in depth stories that they've learnt from the teachers, they've learn long poems and songs, come home with beautiful chalk and painted pictures and are currently learning how to finger knit and sew by hand. To me, these skills are invaluable and I would prefer them to have life skills such as cooking and tending to themselves, others and the environment than reading and writing before they are ready to join the majority of the workforce behind a desk.
Steiner schools don't encourage reading and writing before 6/7 but they don't ban it. Same goes for black paints and crayons. They encourage clothes without logos as it influences their play. I've seen it,
It happens constantly. This is one rule I've taken on with relief. There is one gnome that I've seen, and that's a cuddly gnome that comes out at story time to help tell the stories, which the children love. Nothing more.
I can't say much about the older classes but what I've seen of the older children is that they're happy, content to express themselves in terms of clothing which a great deal can't do in mainstream uniform, and socialise with the younger classes a lot more than normal. The teachers seem happy and they seem to have close relationships with the students, helped by the fact they're called by their first names, which helps to take some of the power struggle away.
There are always going to be different types of parents. I think I'm one of the youngest there at 26. Some are majorly crunchy and they're lovely. Some are the opposite of crunchy and are what we call Steiner flexible, and they're lovely too. Parents commute from places all around Devon to bring their kids to the school, that should tell you enough.
Steiner has come a long way in the last 20 years, they are still very traditional in terms of teaching and lack of electronics (which I love!) but understand that children are growing up in a modern world. My impression is that they try and preserve childhood rather than push them through to adulthood faster.
Any questions, please feel free to message me.

[Feenie]

As a mum of two young children who attend the Steiner Academy in Exeter, I want to dispel any rubbish that's been written about the school

I can't see anything about a school in Exeter?

[MumTryingHerBest]

Roseredirish - I want to dispel any rubbish that's been written about the school and Steiner schools in general

Are you referring to Ofsted reports (as per the link in the post above yours)?

[Copperbeech33]

why are you wandering from zombie thread to zombie thread trying to make connections and build up support for this wacko nazi weird occultic system of bullying, racism fantasy and facism?

MNers are not stupid you know, and they can see straight through you.

[Roseredirish]

Occultic? Seriously? Copperbeech, you obviously have a hateful vendetta against Steiner schools. I'm fed up of seeing people like you put down Steiner schools because they do not share the same way of living or beliefs that others do. Not all are the same. I am a young parent who is not in any way new age or occultish, just wanting my children to grow up happy, supported, amongst gentle people who have a passion for preserving childhood. That is all. I'm not religious, nor are many of the other parents at the school. Some teachers are Buddhists.
Some are not. They are all respectful of others beliefs, and to not preach. I cannot say this enough. If you do not agree with what is happening to mainstream schools, and you have a Steiner academy near you, just visit it. Don't let people like this blur the truth with vicious rumours.