Reducing Stillbirth: Count the Kicks Campaign

[CarGirl]

I just want to promote "Count The Kicks"

Please read this, if it helps one Mum not suffer the agony of stillbirth it's worth it

countthekicks.org.uk/

[skewiff]

sorry - don't know if I'm just being particularly stupid or fuzzy headed - but does it actually say anywhere on the website how many kicks you are supposed to be able to count?

I am now exactly 39 weeks. I have been worrying about reduced movement - but also realise that I am so tuned into DS all day that I am not thinking about monitoring movements at all.

How often should I be monitoring and how many kicks should there be?

[Northernlurker]

I think the idea is you monitor it every day looking for 10-12 movements and get to know what your baby's 'norm' is. Then if you notice any difference from that you need to get checked.
For example - you might notice a lot of movement when you get in to bed or the bath?

[caramelwaffle]

Bump

[LuckyWeKeptTheCot]

What is the stillbirth rate in the UK?

[CarGirl]

17 per day including those dying soon after birth

[mummysleepy]

very helpful thread, so sorry to all those who hve lost babies

I just wanted to mention I have an app on my iphone called babybump pro which has a tool which allows me to count the kicks every day. it also logs all the previous ones so you can easily see if its taken signifcantly longer to get to 10 kicks. The app cost less than £3 and I try to do it at the same time each day, after my tea.

This is my 3rd pregnacy and I never bothered in first 2 but with all this publicity I am more aware of the risks so thanks to all who have contributed to this thread

[sleepdodger]

I had reduced fm at 36?and 41 weeks
mw takes these things v seriously had scan at 38 and monitoring at 41.... They pulled forwards my induction date but as it was had the baby 24 hrs later!!
Point being no one minded checking cncerns at all

[LuckyWeKeptTheCot]

Wow! That's much higher than I thought - even though I do know three people who have had stillbirths which is a lot I think. And what is the birth rate overall per day - live births - so I can get the perspective? (Am pregnant now - early days - still not at 12 weeks yet but thinking ahead.)

[CarGirl]

2,167 apparantly

so 0.8% end up as stillbirth.

It sounds so low but cot death rate is less than 1 child per day yet there is so much literature and research into preventing it.

[LuckyWeKeptTheCot]

It is quite high I think - and, as you say not talked about as much as cot death or miscarriage. The campaign to reduce cot death was one of the most successful public info campaigns ever - a huge reduction in cot death. Can MN begin a similar campaign re stillbirth do you think?

[CarGirl]

It would be lovely if we could - Count the kicks already exists we just would need MN memeber to support and donate to it?

Chloe's Countthekicks are on facebook so if you use fb search for it and hit like and help spread awareness that way?

www.picbadges.com/count-the-kicks/1560079/

hope the link works

At your antenatal classes ask the MW to talk about it?

[LuckyWeKeptTheCot]

Thanks! Good info and will spread the word for sure.

[InMyPrime]

Thanks to everyone for bumping this thread and adding so much helpful information. The stories some of you have, while awful, are also really to know about so thanks so much for being willing to share your stories. I had no idea, for example, that a baby in distress could still be moving or even that a baby that had already demised could still seem to be moving because of the effect of the fluid. I am 17 weeks at the moment and still no sign of movement (unless some slight rumbling counts as movement??) but I'll be counting the kicks as well.

There is a common idea out there, shown by IAGTBF's comment, that stillbirth is something 'natural' or inevitable and nothing can be done to prevent it while the baby is in the womb. Even the midwife said this to me when I asked about later MC or stillbirth. 'It's very rare and if it happens it's usually inevitable so there's no point worrying'.

It's been very enlightening to read on this thread that there are numerous situations where stillbirth can in fact be prevented. I wish NHS staff were more honest with us as patients rather than trying to treat us as children and prevent us from 'worrying'.

I think part of the reason for the high stillbirth rate in the UK must surely be the lack of monitoring of pregnant women. You are only monitored or checked if you have an obvious complication and it's up to the patient to self-report any problems. Patients that are uninformed or less confident won't do this. There is barely any routine monitoring of pregnant women in the NHS unless they have some history that warrants it. I think this is terrible as it's clear from some of the stories here that a serious problem can emerge from left-field for even the healthiest patients - how is the average patient supposed to be aware of such a problem starting and when and what to report? I am amazed, for example, that I won't be seeing ANY healthcare professional at all in my pregnancy until 24 weeks, except for the 12 week and 20 week scans. In other countries, monitoring is more routine as otchayaniye pointed out. It's no wonder there are so many tragic losses.

[Cattleprod]

The rate for white british people is 4.5 per 1000. Certain ethnic groups have higher rates of riskier premature births, and there are other factors like multiple births etc. which overall makes the rate in the UK something like 7.6 per thousand.

There's an article somewhere which has all the statistics - maybe someone can remember what it is and link to it. Some strange variables that you'd think wouldn't be important, like your risks are lower if you are married and your husband is middle management.

[CarGirl]

I've been thinking about it today and wondering why has our culture become one of "once you are past x weeks you will have a healthy baby" I wonder if it's the good old media culture again. We seem to have unrealistic expectations, I know of so many people where late miscarriage, still birth or neonatal death never crossed their minds.

I was absolutely paranoid until I left hospital with a living baby (no idea why tbh!) but of course even them some babies turn out to not be healthy.

I wish we didn't live in this culture where we all think a bump is going to = happy mum and baby. Still birth aside it's certainly not always the case. People see a bump and assume you're thrilled to be pregnant and you will have a healthy bundle.

I think there will always be a level of stillbirth because bodies (babies or mums) go wrong, get ill but the current level is way too high. Other countries have reduced theirs and so can we.

[anonandlikeit]

I Became aware at 28 wks of reduced movements in my second pregnancy.
I went to my GP who found a heartbeat BUT was concerned enough about the reduced movements to send me to the hospital.
My GP saved my sons life!

By the time i got to the hospital his heartrate was barley tracebale & falling off all the time, he was in sever distress & delivered immediately by Emcs.

He does have some long term disablitites which ina ll likelyhood is the result of his distress before he was born.

Had i gone to my Dr sooner maybe he would have escaped without disablitiy, who knows? Its something I will always wonder.

But I am grateful my gp took my concerns seriously givent hat I had no other symptoms beyond tiredness.

Count those kicks ladies!

[Cattleprod]

I've found the article but it's a pdf so I don't know how to link to it.

If anyone's interested, it's titled 'Social Inequalities in Maternal and Perinatal Mortality', by Sarah Fisher, NCT New Digest 44, October 2008.

It's sobering reading though.

[anonandlikeit]

tracebale?? Not sure what that means

[CarGirl]

I wonder how the stats have changed in the last 2-3 years.

I wonder if you could ask Count the kicks to have it on their website?

[Cattleprod]

anonandlikeit - it's stories like yours that make the campaign worthwhile.

Most babies will be born alive and well whether their kicks are counted or not. Sadly some babies won't make it even if their kicks are counted and monitored. But a few babies will have their lives saved because their mothers are aware of monitoring their movements and seeking help if something seems wrong. And those babies are the reason we need to make people aware.

[CarGirl]

After scan reading the pdf even if you are white, married, husband in a decent job ie the least risk for stillbirth/neonatal death you are still more than 4 x likely to lose a child to stillbirth than cot death

[Hangingbellyofbabylon]

Thank you for this thread. My dd stopped moving at 35 weeks and very nearly died. Due to many cock-ups and delays to her delivery she has ended up with cerebral palsy but to me it is almost a blessing as I know how close we were to losing her. I have been told countless times since by doctors and midwives that so many women do not want to bother anyone and so leave it 24-48 hours of reduced movement and by then it is just too late . Everyone says about how movement is reduced due to lack of room in the last few weeks which I think makes women feel they are fussing if they do ask for extra monitoring. I think we all feel guilty as we know there are never enough midwives so if you have someone checking you out you might well be denying a midwife to someone who really needs it.

I also think that home doppler use is useful to establish a heart beat but not to show how the baby is. My little girl had a heart beat on the home doppler so I felt reassured but when we got to hospital she was not having any variability in her heart rate which indicated problems.

I urge anyone who has any doubt at all about their babies' movement to go and get checked out. You may well save a life.

Thank you to all the mums who have lost their beautiful babes and have had the strength to come on here and share stories. I know everyday how close I came to losing my beautiful girl.

[Cattleprod]

That's because, thankfully, the campaign to reduce cot death was very successful, taking the rates from, iirc, 1600 per year to 300. I don't know if those rates can be improved further, as I don't know the reasons for the 300.

Now stillbirth is more in the public eye because of tragedies experienced by Lily Allen and Amanda Holden, so now is the time to promote this campaign to raise awareness of what pregnant people can do to protect themselves, whether that be by monitoring movements or other things that research might flag up.

My knowledge of the subject has been improved significantly by info on mumsnet. I used to think a stillbirth happened at 40 weeks, you went into labour and sadly the baby was born lifeless, with no warning. Obviously it happens that way sometimes, but I didn't know about looking for signs earlier on and monitoring. Shockingly, the subject wasn't mentioned at my NCT classes even though one of the couples in the previous group had experienced it a few weeks previously. Obviously they didn't want to scare us but we need to be informed if there is something we can do to help prevent it and protect ourselves.

[Northernlurker]

I think it's very striking that this thread has had so many posts on it from people saying 'I didn't know that' Just shows you what information is needed out there. I asked mnet hq to consider some sort of notice at the top of all pregnancy threads - apparently they would discuss it when all back in the office. I'll give them the weekend and then chase them!

[Cattleprod]

I'll definitely be making myself a kick counting bracelet in the next few weeks!!