Anyone a monumentem (sp) member?

[BrandNewAndImproved]

Never heard of them before Corbyn. Now they're everywhere.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

Momentum have a lot of money behind them and a very very wealthy owner.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

...and a lot of enthusiastic members paying in bits and bobs, but mostly really willing to put the leg work in for what they believe!

I wish they weren't cast so negatively if I'm honest. There are over-zealous bullies in every walk of life - not excusing that sort of behaviour AT ALL by the way - and it needs to be properly handled, even by a relatively new organisation that has expanded more rapidly than it's had the capacity to manage in that regard. But I do think it's the kind of grass roots initiative that Labour should embrace as I think it's really useful.

A criticism raised at our last AGM about the EU referendum campaign was that local remain events weren't well enough managed or orchestrated and that technology and social media were underused. These are the strengths of groups like Momentum and they can be extremely powerful.

[NotDavidTennant]

"These are the strengths of groups like Momentum and they can be extremely powerful."

If Momentum were a campaigning group under Labour party control then I would agree with that.

The problem is the fact in some CLPs they are seem to have pushed out long-standing office holders in favour of Momentum-approved candidates and are alleged to be plotting to do the same thing to MPs. If this is taken to its logical conclusion then no-one will be able to hold office in the Labour party without Momentum approval. And as has been pointed out, Momentum has no formal status within Labour and no-one really knows who is in charge of them or how they make decisions as a group.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

I think if the Labour party hadn't descended into civil war they would be a campaigning group within Labour! That's the sad thing. And it's not like they brought this fight to Labour, I'm sure they believe the PLP brought this fight to them.

I agree with your assessment of the issues, but they could not have been pre-empted by Momentum in their pre-coup incarnation. The problems are more general problems of everyone involved in this debacle that have mostly only come to the fore under these very rare circumstances.

There are a lot of logical conclusions to be drawn all round that really highlight holes in our democratic process I think.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

I think if the Labour party hadn't descended into civil war they would be a campaigning group within Labour!

I don't think they would in all honesty.

It came about as a support group for Jeremy not Labour. If Jeremy was to go would they campaign for Owen or a leader like Chukka?

[LoloKazoloh]

Piglet, I don't want to represent Momentum because I only just joined, but I can tell you that when I did, I sign and agree formally to this code: www.peoplesmomentum.com/ethics and to support the values and aims of the Labour Party.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

If Jeremy was to go would they campaign for Owen or a leader like Chukka?

I'm sure that under the banner of Momentum as it currently stands they wouldn't. But many of the members would slip back into the melting pot of Labour, and you'd perhaps expect or hope other campaigning organisations would spring up to support those guys. Owen already has Saving Labour, who I'm sure would rebrand in the event of his winning.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

I know they do Lolo but they started as a campaign and support mechanism for Corbyn not a general Labour campaigner.

It has morphed into that but I'm not convinced it will continue if he goes nor am I convinced that all the support would stay either.

Happy to be proved wrong but fear I won't be.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

I'm not convinced it will continue if he goes nor am I convinced that all the support would stay either

Completely agree with you here Piglet, I know a good few people who currently would be too burnt to support a Labour without Corbyn under these circumstances.

[LoloKazoloh]

Also not to be... whatever, but Momentum = Militant of the 70s???? I wasn't even alive in the 70s.

I get this a LOT talking to Labour people and it's really difficult to know how to approach it. I know a lot of Labour people -my dad has been a member for 50 years - and it's impossible to talk to them about now, about 2016. They just go on and on about me wanting to go back to 1983 and how it will never work etc. But... I don't want to? They put these strange positions on me and then "refute" them with all these arguments about losing to Thatcher and about Rupert Murdoch. But they can't seem to see that 1983 was BEFORE we got completely fucked by neoliberalism and people feel differently now; especially people, er, who spent 1983 watching Button Moon.

I read the Labour 1983 manifesto and it seemed like it had good parts and bad parts and I understand it didn't get them elected but neither did the 2015 or 2010 manifestos but those ones are apparently genius? Also...the thing is, I read the REPUBLICAN 1956 and even that reads more left wing than politics now; they boast about expanding social security and strengthening the unions fer chrissake! :P
So I feel trapped in this loop of an historical analysis that isn't engaging with the present. At the same time, they seem completely bewildered by/unwilling to act on the rise of populism and the collapse of the centre, which is highly predictable given present material conditions, and has happened over and over in history (you can't have the Populares and the Optimates without the public land enclosures too).

So, anyway, I'm not making a statement about ALL Labour people, just the ones I know and some I have debated with online. But I can recognise a pattern and I want to unpick it and figure out (genuinely and with openness) what is going on there and how to engage better (if I ever am allowed to go to a meeting which on the looks of it is unlikely as I have apparently dun everyfin rong.

[LoloKazoloh]

Sorry for killing thread. Carry on! Ignore wall of text!

[GiddyOnZackHunt]

Lolo I rather liked your post :)

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

I liked it too! Not least because you express (with much more political knowledge and articulation) exactly what I've seen of new members in my area here too. I'm a relatively new member, although I went to a few meetings before they were stopped, and I have found both myself and people like you - so many others like you and I - welcomed with open arms! But necessarily agreed with out of hand, but welcomed and valued. Saying that I can see that everywhere there are people looking to tarnish new members with a very broad and unflattering brush. I'm lucky not to have met too many of these people on the ground, however the ones I have met weren't even party members mostly, and the majority had questionable links to labour party values - if any links at all!

[BrandNewAndImproved]

I really liked your post as well lola.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

I think that there has to be a recognition that the views of party members may not be the views of the wider electorate.

Corbyn isn't connecting with the wider 9 million plus voters. To win a GE Labour needs at least over 12 million voters.

It is also worth remembering that not all those that belong to Momentum are Labour members or even vote or have any intention of, voting Labour.

I posted this elsewhere but at the moment the party is losing support rapidly. If a GE was called quickly Tories could gain a 200 majority.

[BrandNewAndImproved]

But this isn't a thread about who's winning the next ge or a fight over corbyn being the best leader or not. There's plenty of threads about that already. But as its turned into this here's my opinion.

All the new members who joined (thousands) in support of corbyn will leave if the ones who don't like him manage to boot him out. They won't go over to Owen plus he'll be a crap leader, he's a complete fuck up and not very professional. The press will decimate him worse then corbyn. Then labour will be back to square one with the polls down even lower.

Labour has turned into a laughing stock and not because of corbyn but because of the divide. Corbyn galvanised politics with the last labour leader contest. I'm not sure why some people don't like him. I'm honestly baffled as to me he is labour, Tony benn the greatest politician was his mentor fgs. Labour cannot seem to pull it together and thats down to the mps not corbyn. I really don't understand why they cannot see they are making themselves look stupid and they're the reason people are again losing the momentum to get behind a political party.

I'm also not sure why everything is corbyns fault. Oh my dog died let's blame Corbyn, oh I tripped over let's blame corbyn.

As for the intimidating threats I don't believe half of if. I was reading an article the other day that said someone had tweeted they couldn't get to see him as there was his body guards (momentum) around so he tweeted back actually I'm in my office not surrounded with people. It's ridiculous the lies and the lengths people are going to to get rid of him and they can't see they're making themselves look like fools.

They should have elected David not Ed and then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Ed was never going to win,. (unfortunately as he was rather nice and his heart was in the right place) I expect that was corbyns fault to...

I also don't understand why all the members have to like him. I remember when Blair got elected leader and took away the promise to keep tighter hold on the banks. Lots of labour members didn't like that he was doing that but they still worked with him and didn't end up forcing a divided petty bitchy idiotic mess like they're doing now. Corbyn got elected with the biggest mandate a parties ever had and instead of being pleased about it they've ruined it.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

I'm also not sure why everything is corbyns fault. Oh my dog died let's blame Corbyn, oh I tripped over let's blame corbyn.

Of course not everything is Corbyn's fault. However there are groups of people that believe he can do no wrong whatsoever.

He can't demand loyalty from PLP as he has not shown it himself to various leaders in the past.

The fact that he isn't leading and showing no direction is his fault. His team even suggesting that not winning a GE doesn't matter is his fault.

As to why some don't like him maybe have said look at things he has supported in the past. It will give you a clue.

I have been a Labour member for many years. I have actively campaigned. I have been canversing in various parts of the country. I have heard what voters not members have said.

I was willing to give Corbyn a chance even though he wasn't my choice.

It isn't working.

IMO the party will split.

[0phelia]

The party will split and belong to Corbyn.

Right now is a fight for the name. Smithster represents the right, Corbyn represents the left. Both believe the Labour name belongs to them.

Lolo is correct in thinking times have changed. The corporate capitalist centre ground is rapidly disintegrating and those who are used to power need to be worried.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

The party will split and belong to Corbyn.

If it splits it 'belongs' to no one.

Each 'side' would have to start from scratch. Both would be decimated for years to come.

Smith also isn't anywhere near to the 'right' of the party.

[0phelia]

No, only the break away side will have to find a new name. Corbyn will keep hold of the name, it's history, its funding and trade union links.

Smith is a former lobbyist for privatisation of the NHS he is an entrenched right winger.

I predict 66.5% for Corbyn in leadership vote and might put money on it.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

No, only the break away side will have to find a new name. Corbyn will keep hold of the name, it's history, its funding and trade union links

If only it was that simple.....

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

Corbyn will keep hold of the name, it's history, its funding and trade union links

All the things that have proven so effective in winning elections of late, in fact.

On current showing, Labour will lose 150 seats at the next election. I wonder how the unions and the donors will react to that?

[BrandNewAndImproved]

Smith is an idiot did you see him on news night?

The important issues in regards to nuclear weapons and immigration isn't going to win him any new members or votes. Those issues are why corbyn got so many new members.

Corbyn really appeals to a lot of people even with the huge smear campaign that's gone on. Really can't understand why labour hasn't capitalised on it instead of bringing him down whether you like him or not. I personally agree with lots that he's voted for. I like his morals and views about nuclear weapons, war, immigration nationalising the railways and so on. I don't want another left leader who acts right.

Labour could have used corbyn, built up an even bigger membership and then had someone young and dynamic take up before the next ge. Instead they cannot see what they're doing to corbyn is destroying the party and they themselves will be left out. Smith will never beat corbyn in a leadership contest.

Maybe because I have a lefty sort of life I can't see it. My friends are left, I work in a school and teachers are normally left. My bigoted steodad whos a perfect fit for ukip will never vote for someone like corbyn but he wouldn't vote for Ed or Smith either. He is that typical let's make Britain great again whilst drinking ten cans of cider sort of person. I think he votes Conservative as he doesn't like benefits or immigration. People like him are so entrenched in their views they won't change. A different leader like Eagle or Smith won't do it. Maybe David could have

[0phelia]

Another good thing about Momentum is how they dissect the utter lies told by various people in the mainstream press, and share it on social media.

Eg "Corbyn supporters threw a brick into my office window" says lying Angela Eagle. Proven to not even be her window.

"Corbyn heckled at gay pride by angry man" man proven to be paid and planted by Blair PR company

"I had a mob of Corbyn hooligans outside my office" Turns out they were peaceful candle holding Muslims...

Momentum are worth following on twitter at the very least as it all exposes the lying press bias.

[0phelia]

OP I think one of the reasons for the Coup is perdonal contempt because Corbyn voted against them so many times over the years, lead the Stop the war Coalition etc and this is "getting back at him"

But another reason is ideological. These MPs were parachuted in under Blair, hold entrenched right wing views, live in their Westminster bubble and literally have no idea, have certainly underestimated the left movement and view it all as a "mistake". But you cannot ignore the people crying out for this movement and asking for change the sheer numbers involved. These MPs are being so arrogant and making themselves more hated.

It's a cock up of monumental proportions if they only backed him things would be so different.