Anyone a monumentem (sp) member?

[BrandNewAndImproved]

Never heard of them before Corbyn. Now they're everywhere.

[LoloKazoloh]

Sorry. Got interrupted.

So what I'm saying is - that's where I'm coming from. That's why I joined. I see that it was a mistake to join but I'm still trying to figure out where the Labour Party is coming from, because even though I obviously have a different opinion/analysis/response, we are all still basically on the same side, aren't we. Even though we disagree on methods and even a lot of (policy by policy) goals, we still broadly are pro-human and anti-apocalypse.

I would also work with Lib Dems, Greens, etc. Hell, I'd even work with Tories. They can't ALL be child snatching servants of the Night's King. :P We don't HAVE to agree. In fact, I sort of think that we need the debate? I'd rather honest debate and a variety of genuinely held differentiable opinions than the sort of political discourse that is allowed in the media atm. I can think people are wrong without being ridiculous or evil. That's quite normal I think. Some Tory policies are non terrible in practice. I want a national health service without privatisations, but I've also benefited hugely from the personal health budget system and can see its genuine advantages. And I can also see the downsides and those are real too.

[LoloKazoloh]

It just reminds me of Game of Thrones, you know? All this energy and sound and fury poured into who sits on the Iron Throne. Meanwhile, a zombie army of eternal winter marches on all the realms of men, with fifty half-armed boys left to fight them. :P

I don't care who is leader of the Labour Party. Or not nearly so much as I care what the Labour Party is saying, being, doing as a movement. I don't think Corbyn has been given a fair shake by anyone, and that is to be expected. It's not even necessarily, in the current climate, a drawback.

How has the Trump ridicule been working out for Americans? (Not well!) Dismissing Farage hasn't harmed his political career. He got his Brexit. I'm not saying Corbyn is like either of them (he probably IS a bit like Sanders obv), though I see that many centrists really DO and really genuinely reject him based on their own rational analyses that include an aversion to populism in any stripe. I'm just saying that there is a genuine, existential threat to democracy rising all around us and the left cannot respond by clubbing Gracchi to death. Well it can. But we'll lose. I'm used to losing. I'm used to not getting my way. I don't need a lesson or a lecture in that. I'm saying things fall apart. The .

It isn't 1983. We cannot always fight the last war. The consequences of the last war must necessarily have changed the conditions of the present.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

I think the problem is that there is passion on both 'sides'

Tensions are running high and unfortunately I can't see it ending any time soon even after the contest.

Social media is troll heaven at the moment.

Who ever wins there there is going to be a significant number of people not happy.

[LoloKazoloh]

Yeah - I mean - this is the thing. There's so much anger and this...I don't know. This kind of discussion which keeps popping up on every thread, regardless of its initial topic, with the aggressive questioning reads weirdly like the kayfabe on radio 4 or whatever. DID YOU THREATEN TO OVERRULE HIM. ANSWER THE QUESTION, MINISTER!! Do you really talk like this in real life? Genuinely - it doesn't read like a genuine conversation to me where you try to see each other's point of view and maybe consider your own with new eyes (not necessarily changing your position!)

I don't know how to reach you guys. I don't know what I've done to make you think I'm the enemy.

I'm not your enemy. I realise obviously it was a mistake to join the Labour Party and it doesn't want me or anybody remotely like me. I have voted for other parties in my life (seen on many threads as a black mark). I would describe myself as believing strongly in social democracy over technocracy. Of the options on offer, I'd vote for Corbyn. Though to be honest it's not him personally; it's what he is not. (I have not signed up to vote for leader.) I am young, Northern, uneducated and lived on benefits for years. I am not massively pro-EU. These are all wrong things to be and do. I am not who you want. I get that!! But I am STILL not your enemy.

[Showmethewaytogohome]

eat The Labour party under John Smith were relying on honour and principle as they saw no need to make any vote of no confidence binding when they were looking at the electoral college

medium.com/@davidjward/if-john-smith-had-lost-a-no-confidence-vote-he-would-have-resigned-76f5e54beccc#.hih2tn7hp

PS - I wish he had lived - how different things would have been

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

I'm just asking you which you think the ones are which would be a good start when promoted over the summer

Well that's not what you asked is it.

Tell us the Corbyn policy which, if he had clear political weather, would excite and energise the electorate into supporting him (and us).

Now I love a good political chat, but I am not a performing monkey. I'm not especially enjoying your combative stance and I'm less than convinced anything I could say would incite anything more productive than your scorn. So I won't bother thanks.

Might pop back if this chat gets back to being the interesting conversation in good spirits it was a little while back, or perhaps if you at any point fancy laying down your bright ideas about where Labour goes from here, as I have politely requested on numerous past occasions.Ta ra!

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

Oh, I have the policies, thank you.

I'm just asking you which you think the ones are which would be a good start when promoted over the summer, as you propose.

Tell us the Corbyn policy which, if he had clear political weather, would excite and energise the electorate into supporting him (and us).

The stuff about closing all drug research down and only having it done by the government (which will see about 90% of drug research in the UK closed down)? I see John's rolled that one back. The exciting proposals on pay audits for companies employing more than 21 staff? What?

You've got three minutes with Jeremy and a sceptical audience. What does he say that will win them over?

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

Could you tell us what the policies are?

Are you asking because you don't know and genuinely want me to tell you? You can't use Google?? Although surely what with you being so invested in this debate you've already armed yourself with that information. Don't go telling me you can't find them so they must be tantamount to invisible; if you'd like a summary Owen Smith gave a rather succinct one at his leadership event today.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

A summer of promoting his policies nationwide would be a good start

Could you tell us what the policies are?

Not Trident: Labour policy is still renewal, and he needs to go to conference to change that. He'll probably lose, but we'll see (I'm not bothered either way, like most people).

What about Europe? He could campaign on his long and noble history of supporting the EU and make it clear that Labour are committed to reducing the damage of Brexit. Ah, except about that "long and noble history of supporting the EU"...

What about some economic policies? He could get his advisors like...oh, he's resigned...oh, and him...oh, and him...well, never mind.

Maybe education? Perhaps he and Diane and Emily and Seamus and Harriet and all the rest could unite and try to promote Labour's policies on comprehensive education? Well, for the proles, at least: their own children wouldn't be seen dead anywhere near a comprehensive school, of course.

Could you suggest some policies Jeremy has which wouldn't invite open laughter when promoted? Does he have any?

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

They were relying on honour and principle to prevail.

If they were so concerned with honour and principle they would have taken the party route of a no confidence vote immediately, not after their media-courting bully tactics, no?

[Showmethewaytogohome]

Re who are actual voters more likely to vote for Local councillors think Smith (and they are much closer to the electorate than I am)

Survey of 250 councilors in marginal seats ^The survey, carried out between 21-25 July, found that 60 per cent of councillors are backing Mr Smith, with 28 per cent likely to vote for Mr Corbyn. Eleven per cent were undecided.

And amongst the councillors, 65 per cent believe the MP for Pontypridd gives the Labour Party the best chance of winning their constituency at the next General Election, compared to 23 per cent who think it is best to stick with Mr Corbyn. However, the councillors think the Labour leader has the strong backing of members and registered supporters within their ward^

[Showmethewaytogohome]

So what have have done is not in itself undemocratic. They have followed the rules and applied it also to their own actions. They have had no confidence and have resigned the shadow roles. They have not resigned the whip - yet- so remain part of the party, on the backbenches

[Showmethewaytogohome]

My understanding is when the this part of the rule book was reviewed by John Smith his view was that no leader would ever NOT stand down in the event of a vote of no confidence so they saw no need to make it binding - mistake yes but I guess they thought that the principles of any leader would suffice in the event of a no confidence

So yes you are technically correct - I wouldn't call it bypassing as there is a process in place for having the vote - but it is not binding. They were relying on honour and principle to prevail. Shame it is lacking. Let's see if tomorrows ruling is against Corbyn if he accepts it in that case - as he likes to follow the rules. Or only when it suits

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

What's your strategy to convince them that they are wrong?

A summer of promoting his policies nationwide would be a good start ..oh wait...

Look, I'm not the fricking "makes all the bad stuff go away" patrol on behalf of Corbyn. For what it's worth it might be worth considering what the polls might look like if this whole sorry debacle hadn't been instigated and if the continuing slur campaign by our own party perhaps abated just for a minute for, you know, the good of everyone. What would you like to do about that 30%? It's your party too, no? Would they rather have Smith? Isn't it rather academic if they wouldn't?!

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

What have they done which is so undemocratic?

Um... deserting their vital shadow-cabinet positions in a time of great national upheaval to attempt to unseat Corbyn through no democratic process, rather through attrition of the spirit - bullying - by way of organised mass resignation. This is not how grown-ups and people in positions of great responsibility behave.

He was never on the front bench

Gosh, shoot him, he's never been in a position to cause so much damage to the party; but in his limited capacity of a back-bencher for 33 years what massive blows (proportional to his position of course) has he dealt against the party? I think this "Corbyn doesn't support his leaders either" line of debate is a non-starter.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

He followed democratic party process - which would have been a totally legitimate option for the unhappy MPs which I would fully have supported.

What have they done which is so undemocratic?

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millions-labour-voters-would-theresa-8500523

30% of people who voted Labour in 2015 would rather have May as Prime Minister than Corbyn.

30%.

30%.

What's your strategy to convince them that they are wrong?

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

He defied whips repeatedly, no doubt. But did he desert his post and refuse to work under them? No he did not.

He was never on the front bench (which is where those that have resigned have gone back to. They haven't stopped being MPs)

He was very much for unseating Kinnock.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

He followed democratic party process - which would have been a totally legitimate option for the unhappy MPs which I would fully have supported.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

And he pretty much refused to work under Kinnock:

www.newstatesman.com/2016/07/neil-kinnock-when-corbyn-wanted-me-deposed-i-sought-nominations-mps

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

But did he desert his post and refuse to work under them?

A problem he was never confronted with, as he never had a post other than being a backbencher.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

Could you name the Labour Leader that Corbyn didn't oppose?

He defied whips repeatedly, no doubt. But did he desert his post and refuse to work under them? No he did not.

[eatsleephockeyrepeat]

My apology. They abstained on the second reading and voted against the final bill.

Generally agreed to have been badly handled by Labour and unconvincingly defended with "we were only abstaining whilst waiting for an amendment" - the amendment not being passed - and everyone left wondering quite what Labour stands for after all.

[CuboidalSlipshoddy]

I do wish though someone opposed to Corbyn would accept it might perhaps be okay to not oppose him

Could you name the Labour Leader that Corbyn didn't oppose?