MNHQ Group 2

[AnnMumsnet]

Many thanks for agreeing to take part in this closed discussion thread. As you'll know, you all have an individual user name, separate to your on-site profile. So please feel free to be as open and frank as you like, without your views being read-across to your site profile.

The aim of these discussions is to discover if, how and why women's voting intentions are shifting and what you think about each of the party leaders.

We'll ask a few questions, allow you to think them over, respond, engage in a bit of discussion with other participants, and then we will pop back on the thread. We might want to tease out the reasons behind particular views or opinions and then will crack on with the next set of questions (on Thursday) and one more set over the weekend. Do feel free to re visit the thread at any point over the next week or so. We'll email you when we add a new set of questions.

Here are the questions to get you started

Thinking about when you decide which party to vote for, how important is the leader of the party in that decision?

Why?

What do you look for in a party leader? What makes a good party leader and what makes a bad one? What makes a good prime minister and what makes a bad one?

Thinking about the party you voted for at the 2010 General Election and the party you would vote for now, has it changed?

Why?
Why not?

Feel free to include any thoughts you might have - they don't have to be the conventional, just true to how you feel!

[delegate213]

To look after the interests of women?
I'm not sure women have interests that are very gender specific. Dh and I both care about education, money etc. I'm pleased with the change to paternity leave.
DC - no, think he and his bloke mates decide what women want and then kindly give it to them with a pat on the head.
EM - probably takes on board actual input from women
NC - too busy trying to do the right thing to actually do the right thing.

[delegate216]

Dc- i dont think he has any idea about women like me and their interests. one full time worker low income, one child, two stepchildren one disabled. hb cut because sc dont live with us full time. things work out against us in the majority of things.
EM - understands more the needs of the average family i think but not sure he would actually inplement changes in power
nc i dont have huge views on he seems to fade into the background

[delegate203]

1. Party leaders understanding issues concerning women like me?
   
   Cameron - I think Cameron is wholly out of touch with the majority, and therefore with me. His ideals are based on the appealing fallacy that if everyone pulls their finger out, we can all make Britain great. And yet he tolerates the greed which imho is moral theft at the very top of the multi nationals and banks. Every time a poorly paid worker is topped up with FTC, the government is effectively giving grant aid to profit making corporations. He is so old school, so deeply entrenched in the Old Etonian mould, that I doubt he can ever gain the insight required to truly empathise with anyone who doesn't share his brisk, financially bolstered attitude to life. I was a contemporary of his and Boris's at uni. Such men could not see women as equals. We were a world apart. There are slots in their world we ought to fit into and those who don't are invisible.
   
   Clegg? Can anyone honestly say they know what Clegg thinks or fights for as a leader, let alone his position on women? The Tories could not have got in without him and yet he's rolled over like a kitten with a bull terrier at its throat, and his policies have become invisible too. My guess is that lip service would be paid at all times by Clegg. He'd agree to everything and delay and deliver nothing with regards to what women want and need. (Sensibly funded childcare; affordable housing; a living wage; safe, academically driven schooling for their children locally; a health service with a focus on care not savings and profit margins for the companies to whom work is increasingly outsourced etc.)
   
   Milliband - I agree with the poster upthread who said he doesn't raise his voice hard enough. He needs to start behaving like a leader of this country not the figurehead of the opposition. I suspect he is the most in tune. His upbringing demonstrates that he was raised to see women as equals, as driven, intelligent and professional people. And upbringing I think sets the roots of core beliefs.
   
   Best of the rest is quite clearly Natalie Bennett. She wins my heart by celebrating the Matchgirls' Strike. (Annie Besant is my all time hero.) She appears to show support for key issues: workers' rights, womens' rights, children's rights - all of which were addressed in the Matchgirls' strike. She comes over as far more socialist than Milliband.
   
   My cynical concern is this: it is so easy to say the right things when you have zero chance of running the country. We can all imagine utopia. I can imagine my home - perfectly clean, repaired, ordered and tranquil. In reality the endless demands and interruptions of the day make it a bit of a cosy tip and money put aside to mend a window pane has just been paid out to the vet for the cat's lame leg. Running the country is the macrocosm of this. I'd like to see her explain precisely what she'd do and how she'd fund it, what laws would be passed through parliament to make the changes she espouses.
   
   Someone really REALLY needs to put the brakes on the business for profit model. It fails all but the very few. Where businesses are legally obliged to deliver the highest possible profits to shareholders, it is blatantly obvious that both employees and clients bear the brunt.
   The notion of service should be reinstated. Profit-making companies shouldn't be allowed anywhere near core service providers - NHS; education; national transport links and above all right now: housing. Which leader will admit that essentials are being pushed into the luxury bracket? Which leader can come up with a workable plan to undo this appalling constructed financial model we now live by? Not just comment lucidly on it from the sidelines but demonstrate how to change it? If Natalie Bennett can do that, she'd have my vote.

[delegate220]

Regardless of party, women are somewhat 'invisible and impotent. It seems to be getting harder to be a 'working woman' (with children) due to child care costs etc.

Women being 'heard' in their party - I don't think think is top of any party's agenda - although senior Tory female figures do seem to be female Cameron clones!

I don't trust any of the parties to look after the interests of women

[delegate207]

1. So, these days how well or badly do you think the current main party leaders are doing on understanding the issues and concerned facing women like you.
   
   I don't think DC has any understanding of the issues and needs of women like me, but then again, I don't think his party does either.
   
   EM - I think probably is nearest to understanding
   
   NC - probably does understand but not strong enough to do anything about it
   
   
   
2. and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?
   
   DC - trick question right? clearly no understanding
   DM - I do think Labour stands up more for women and our rights
   NC - who knows!
   
   
3. Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?
   
   I've always felt that Labour is the most likely to look after womens interests, but in reality all parties promise us the earth and deliver nothing.

[delegate218]

DC - trying to understand issues for women but just never will. Inherently too posh and public school.
NC - I liked him for slagging off Gina Ford and I think he means well for women. But has proved himself to be ineffectual in govt.
EM - Ought to be sticking up for public sector workers, majority of whom are affected by cuts, but isn't.
Weirdly then I think NC gets it most out if all of them for professional working women like me. But has done nothing to sort out exorbitant childcare costs despite making the right noises, which is a massively big deal and really life changing for women like me. I just had a second child -- when I go back all my salary will go on childcare. It's farcical.
DC - doubt he listens to women at all. 'Calm down dear' says it all
NC - listens but does nothing about it
EM - strikes me as being a bit frightened of women.

Parties. Labour is inherently the party for women I think and certainly mothers as it's often mothers who access public services most like GPs, schools etc. trust Tories the least because their motto is 'there's no such thing as society' - this is absolutely the opposite of how I feel having kids. Labour is the natural party, collective action, coming together to do good things, the welfare state, etc...

[delegate217]

1. First of all David Cameron?
   He is incapable of understanding the issues concerning women like me as I come from a completely different background to him and is unable to understand anything that hasn't directly affected him. I'm also a teacher, and he doesn't appear to like or respect teachers that much.
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   I used to think that he had a better understanding of issues that concern women like me, but based on the last few years I guess not. He actually seems to have no opinions on anything by himself now...
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   Hmmm, I'm not sure here. Of all the party leaders his policies are more in line with my view points, so I guess he does have more of an idea than the others by a long way. However, he still remains an enigma at present.
   
   What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?
   I don't know enough about other party leaders to have a full opinion. It's a shame that you don't really hear much about other leaders, apart from occasional negative press.
   
   
2. and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?
   First of all David Cameron?
   I don't think he could care less whether women are heard, but he just has the token women around him to show how equal he is.
   
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   I think he makes more of an effort than DC and certainly has opinions on important issues such as child care. However, he doesn't seem to be listened to very often...
   
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   I'm unsure on his exact views on women in his party, but he obviously places women in high up positions. One would hope he has places importance on their opinions, as he does with male members of his party.
   
   
   
3. Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?
   
   I would trust Labour the most as their policies in the past and current one tend to work with women instead of against then. However, I don't believe that just because a party has lots of women politicians means that it understands them more. This is a bit of a fallacy.

[delegate221]

DC - I don't believe he is capable of understanding not has the will to understand women. His responses to and comments about women in the Commons including those in his own party goes to show just how inherently sexist he is and as such is unable to appreciate any issues affecting women. His posturing about women is pathetic and transparent.

EM - my gut feeling is that he has an understanding (to some extent) and is willing to look at evidence and positive policies, however, he is so quiet and unremarkable I struggle to really form an opinion.

NC - spineless. His marriage to a independent woman and his support with childcare, would seem to indicate that he does have at least a smidgen of empathy and a feeling of responsibility towards his family. Which is good. But he has not managed to stand up for his Liberal values in the public eye.

I would like to add here that although I strongly believe in the need to support issues that affect disadvantaged groups disproportionately, such as women, I also believe it is the inherent discrimination against these groups that lead to the issues. And until society and our political parties recognise that issues such as child care, domestic violence, rape, inequality of work and pay, are not 'Women's Issues' but societal issues, in which the inequalities need to be redressed, we will never achieve equality

[delegate202]

1) So, these days how well or badly do you think the current main party leaders are doing on understanding the issues and concerned facing women like you.

First of all David Cameron?
Well as I am not an Old Etonian banker or businessman then I think he couldn't care less

And then Nick Clegg?
I had hopes for Nick as I think Marian (sp?) comes across as a "strong" woman, however he has shown himself to be completely useless and spineless.

And then Ed Miliband?
I don't really know much about Ed, for a party leader he doesn't really get out there.

What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

2) and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?

First of all David Cameron? See above!!

And then Nick Clegg? I can't name one female Lib Dem MP

And then Ed Miliband? I think of all parties Labour are the most "women friendly"

What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

3) Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?

I would trust Labour the most, mainly as I feel they are more in touch with the fact that women are the ones who struggle to sort childcare etc
I would trust the Tories the least, as I would in everything as I think they are so out of touch with the "common people"

[AnnMumsnet]

Thanks again - we really appreciate all the comments.

The last questions for the weekend: please add your comments to these questions below - ideally by Monday morning but we'll give everyone an extra day to post if needed .

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

First of all David Cameron?
And then Nick Clegg?
And then Ed Miliband?
What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

First of all David Cameron?
And then Nick Clegg?
And then Ed Miliband?
What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

once more...MNHQ

[delegate223]

1. So, these days how well or badly do you think the current main party leaders are doing on understanding the issues and concerned facing women like you.
   First of all David Cameron?
   
   Badly - doesn't have a clue about people on low incomes.
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   
   Possibly more aware, as he seems less of a silver spoon in the mouth type.
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   
   I think he is probably the most aware.
   
   What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?
   
   Can't thin of another name apart from Nigel LaFarge - he wears mustard trousers, therefore doesn't have the slightest clue about most things!
   
   
2. and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?
   
   First of all David Cameron?
   
   High profile as the man would feel like he is ticking the right boxes.
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   
   He wouldn't have to worry about this as much as DC, as he isn't really in charge! But quite well.
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   
   Quite good, but again they have to do this.
   
   What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?
   
   Nigel LaFarge - appalling.
   
   
3. Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?
   
   I don't trust any one them. I would trust Labour the most as they represent more my demographic and Tories the least as they care more for middle class and upper class people.

[delegate215]

Sorry, still on last set of questions

1. So, these days how well or badly do you think the current main party leaders are doing on understanding the issues and concerned facing women like you.
   
   DC - I'd assume that Cameron has very little understanding of the issues facing me. I'm from up North, working class and work in the public sector. I'd imagine our worlds couldn't be further apart.
   NC - I think, until he sold his soul to the devil I'd have hoped Clegg was a bit of a feminist, he certainly came accross as someone who actually cared about women's issues. Now, however, I think it was possibly all an act.
   EM - from what I know of Ed, I think he will have much more of a idea about my life. He's very left wing (or certainly used to be). Which I think should give him a much better understanding of how the other half live.
   
   
2. and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?
   DC - well we've seen him in action haven't we - calm down dear pretty much sums up his attitude to women in politics. He has reduced the number of women in his cabinet, it's quite worrying actually. I assume the Tory party is very sexist.
   NC - there are very few women in top roles in the Lib Dem's which is a shame because, well, it's just not very liberal is it?
   EM - 40% of the shadow cabinet are women, he regularly speaks about women's issues and representation of women in the media, I'm happy with that.
   
   
3. Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?
   
   The Labour Party the most for the reasons above and the Conservatives the least because I honestly think they only care about people like them. White, rich men in London.

[delegate223]

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

First of all David Cameron?

Appallingly

And then Nick Clegg?

Poorly

And then Ed Miliband?

quite poorly.

What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

Nigel LaFarge - unthinkable!

Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

First of all David Cameron?

Worst - where is all the money!

And then Nick Clegg?

Badly as I don't have a lot of money.

And then Ed Miliband?

Best - but still badly, as they all seem to live in an alternate universe with lots of money!

What about another party leader you know of (or one you think should/ could be a party leader) - please name them and then say: how well or badly do they do on this aspect?

Nigel LaFarge - again, appallingly!

[delegate215]

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

DC - ha, well he is responsible for both my husband and I having our pay frozen and overtime payments stopped (even though we still do the overtime), our increased pension contributions and the stopping of the minuscule amount of Tax credits we had. So I'm sure he'd be more than happy to be in real terms about £300 worse off a month. Might have to give up all the holidays to Ibiza and go on £9.50 trips to Skegness like we've had to but you know we're all in it together eh Dave!

NC - might try it as some kind of social experiment but he'd soon get fed up.

EM - would cope more than the others but I would imagine it would still be quite a shock to the system.

Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

Same as above

Any politician can come and swap life with me for a week, they'd soon be scuttling back to their Surrey mansions!

[delegate220]

household finances - hopefully any one of them should be educated enough to not spend beyond their means and prioritise essentials before frivolous purchases!

Our family budget is not under pressure (at the moment). So again, each of the leaders should be able to stay in the black (whilst shopping at Aldi!).

[delegate213]

Household finances
DC - would probably remove our claim for DLA ( joke!) not sure I imagine I would be allowed housekeeping.

em - I can't imagine him doing a worse job! I have a spreadsheet and keep an eye, I'm sure he'd be capable of this.

Nc - would probably cut out anything frivolous - the cable tv would have to go!

Budget:
Dc would realise hrtax payers and the middle classes aren't rolling in it after tax, ni and living costs.
Em would probably tighten his belt and do quite well.
Nc would be fine.

[delegate221]

This is a fallacious question. All these men have independent incomes, over and above salaries at least 3xthe national average AND generous expense allowances.

The would neither manage nor cope well on our income.

(I do not believe I would. Cope very well on a household income of 2xnational average, and ours is not far above that.)

[delegate203]

1. How well could they manage our budget?
   

Interesting. I bet they'd all know a few scams and favours to call in re investing some of it short term and holidaying with friends at their little places in Italy or Mustique but I doubt they'd be more creative and ingenious than we are already.

I have endless tricks up my sleeve to make our money go a long long way and give us a far richer lifestyle apparently than we should be able to manage on paper. Would they be bothered to rotate which supermarket they shop from, to take advantage of the incentive vouchers that appear if you don't shop for a month or more at a given online store?

They simply wouldn't do or buy some of the things we do and buy. I bet they wouldn't snap up a £69 week's caravan holiday in Northumberland, for starters. They'd imagine it would be choc full of the great unwashed. Too desolate up North too, apparently.

1. How well could they manage on our budget?
   

Not one of the three would manage on our budget. We have family help with school fees and we have a low mortgage but our annual income is the national average of around £25k pa. It has in the past been far higher and it might be again but right now DH is unemployed and I'm on a low salary during training (for something that should earn far more long term), so that's it for two adults and two children. We don't claim any benefits because... because we just don't. We could. But I feel that with the house we live in and family help with fees it would be obscene to ask the state for a top up. I wonder if, in our circumstances they would claim every benefit eligible or would they be all middle class and squeamish about it like we are .

Neither Cameron, Milliband nor Clegg would know where or how to begin to live on that amount.

Would any other leader or potential leader I can think of? I have no idea. One of my political idols has always been Peter Tatchell and I bet he could manage. Not sure whether he'd keep a family of four above water on it, though. It's only £6.25k per head per year. You have to be focused.

[delegate207]

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

First of all David Cameron?
And then Nick Clegg?
And then Ed Miliband?
I'm sure they could all manage the household finances I currently have in place, after all I'm sure they are all capable of sticking to a budget!?

Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

Could they actually live within our family budget? I shouldn't think any of them could manage that. Be a Labour supporter I'd like to think EM would cope the best, but in reality, could any of them manage to juggle everything. They'd probably get rid of my car, and then realise just how expensive public transport is. Could they manage without a holiday or seeing close family abroad because there is nothing left in the pot at the end of the month? I doubt it.

[delegate204]

Catching up, sorry:

1. So, these days how well or badly do you think the current main party leaders are doing on understanding the issues and concerned facing women like you.
   First of all David Cameron?
   
   Well, it's not panning out so well really, is it?
   The whole ideology, while not quite as relevant as it was, speaks volumes. Women don't want to be 'kept in the home' necessarily. We want actual options. Salaries/ equality - zero progress. Affordable childcare - ditto. Sexualised images in daily press - not interested.
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   I can't hear what he's saying with his head up Cameron's arse. Sorry.
   In all seriousness, I don't see any enthusiasm on the subject. He's not 'putting himself out there'.
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   I had a browse through the blog from last week. He's at least addressing the issues and acknowledging the need for progress. It may be lip service, but at least there was a comprehensive reiteration of the main concerns.
   Childcare is the thing nobody is talking about in a meaningful way.
   
   What about another party leader?
   I don't have sufficient interest or enthusiasm to mention any. Nobody is making me listen for very long in that respect. Sorry.
   
   
2. and how well or badly do you think they make sure or take account of women being heard in their party and in politics generally?
   First of all David Cameron?
   Well, they are shockingly represented, and he talks over them. I imagine he pats their heads too.
   
   And then Nick Clegg?
   Low numbers, shocking.
   
   And then Ed Miliband?
   Significantly better, and he acknowledges that it still isn't enough. He's pledged to do something about it too.
   
   
3. Finally for now - which party - if any - do you trust the most to look after the interests of women? Why? And which do you trust the least? And why?
   
   The ideology would point to the Lib-Dems, but I say Labour. For me, it always has been.
   EM rightly pointed out that women have been hit three times harder than men in the recent economic cuts. I trust them more highly to manage the economy more effectively. I also trust them to force equality issues to the fore.
   The conservatives? Well, let's look at the current shambles and think about that..........

[delegate217]

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

First of all David Cameron?

He would be completely useless, wouldn't have the faintest idea about trying to rein in finances.

And then Nick Clegg?
Perhaps more of an idea but again I don't think these people really know what it's like, I guess they have someone doing their finances for them.
And then Ed Miliband?
Perhaps he would do this better, one would hope so.



Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

First of all David Cameron?
He wouldn't cope at all, bet he's never had to even do his own personal budget.

And then Nick Clegg?
I think with all of these questions it isnt necessarily the party they represent that had anything to do with it, it is purely background, where they've come from and how successful they are. Some people in high positions who also come from wealthy backgrounds would have no idea how to manage on an average income.

And then Ed Miliband?
See above.

[delegate214]

Second batch of questions...
As a lone parent of 3 young children, working part time and therefore partially reliant on benefits, I feel none of the party leaders have that much understanding of my situation and issues.

However, I believe that Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg could empathise enough not to make my situation and issues worse. David Cameron would probably sympathise to my face, but would secretly blame me for being in the situation.

I think of all the party leaders, Ed Miliband is the only one who really sees women as equals, and worthy of respect.

[delegate214]

I suspect that none of the leaders would cope with managing my family budget, particularly if they also had to cope with the responsibilities of looking after 3 children, an elderly relative and a home. I don't necessarily feel that has any reflection on their general budgeting abilities...small amounts and obvious priorities perhaps make managing my household budget relatively straightforward.

My main feeling is that the labour party would have similar budget priorities to me...the needs of the weak and least able are most important, as are activities which strengthen people's chances for the future eg education (for children and adults), and health.

[delegate214]

Just realised I missed a question, I think the labour party would prioritise and look out for the needs of women.

[delegate204]

How well or badly do you think the party leaders could manage your household finances effectively?

First of all David Cameron?
And then Nick Clegg?
And then Ed Miliband?

I think that a lot of the Mumsnet benefit-bashing threads on AIBU will show that it's quite easy to pass judgement on the budgets of others.
It's all going to be about spreadsheets, isn't it?
I reckon they would ideally all assign an aide to the task, or their wives, who I would assume have the task of actually managing their own household finances. That's not me being sexist, I'd say the same of a female party leader. I'm sure they are far too busy to think about electricity suppliers and brands of cheese.

If I had to actually entrust one of them to do it, I would choose Miliband. He seems more grounded.
Cameron wouldn't know the essentials from the non-essentials. We'd probably have the children in private education, but £30 per week for groceries.
Not sure about Clegg;I think he'd do better than Cameron though.

Imagine the party leaders had to live on your family budget, which do you think would cope best/worst? Why? What problems would they encounter?

The thing is that these people have totally different expectations and priorities than the majority of voters.
I think they would all mess it up for the first couple of months.

First of all David Cameron?
We are reasonably comfortable, so not a poverty-line challenge, however, I think he would be a disaster.
Much head scratching. I can just imagine him blowing the monthly food budget in a week.
If you gave him an actual breakdown of the original budget, he'd still mess up. I get the impression that he'd assume to know better/ have a better idea of the needs of a family.
I don't think he really knows the actual needs at all.
I think if it were a permanent change, he'd have a breakdown.

And then Nick Clegg?
Do you know what, I think he'd be reasonable. Under these circumstances, all eyes would be on him to make the right decisions. He'd have to think for himself.
I think he'd worry about it a lot, lose sleep about making a hash of it, and actually think it through. They would manage OK on the face of it, but his anxiety would be very apparent.

And then Ed Miliband?
He'd spend too long making noise about why everyone else did it wrong/ would do it wrong, but he'd do the sums and run it by the relevant departments for approval.
They would be OK. He'd make the necessary checks to ensure that his approach would be successful. I still think he would hate the reality of the situation though, but I'm sure they would manage.
He wouldn't moan about it, but he would brag about Cameron's breakdown!