Why aren't you all FURIOUS?!

[NewNames]

And you thought the minister for women and equality was bad... Our HEALTH MINISTER wants to reduce the abortion time limit to 12 weeks!!!!

Front page of tomorrow's Times.

[5madthings]

Everything that mrsdevere has said and actually i thank her and others who have posted on threads like this over the years as they made me stop and think and re-evaluate my thoughts.

Current abortion laws are disabilist. If anything abortion needs to be easier to access.

The quote 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' sums up what i believe. I am very grateful that its not a choice i have had to make and i dont think its one that women take lightly. We (as in women) need the right to autonomy of our bodies.

[threesocksmorgan]

oh in answer to the op
I am furious, at the obvious diablist discrimination shown on all the threads on this subject

[Pozzled]

I understand why people feel so strongly about the different treatment of disabled vs 'healthy' foetuses, and I am glad there are MNers who can explain the issues so clearly.

There is one aspect I don't understand though, and it's about conditions incompatible with life. Isn't it generally quite clear at a scan when a foetus will not be able to survive outside the womb? Or are there grey areas? Because I do think that a baby who could never survive is a very different case from one who is disabled, even if the disability was severe.

[tilder]

The early as possible as late as necessary is very valid.

I appreciate that Jeremy hunt is entitled to a private view but presumably he is aware that comments made by the health Secretary have a certain amount of significance. I also find it disturbing that another minister ignores official scientific advice, made and given by experts in the field. I would be interested to hear his reasoning behind his view on 20 weeks.

[madmouse]

Pozzled if there is one thing every experienced paediatrician can tell you it's that babies have infinite capacity to surprise you. People overestimate what can be seen clearly and definitely on a scan. So yes there is a large grey area. There are people alive today whose parents were told they would not live.

My ds has a little friend at school who had part of his brain growing outside his skull. Abortion failed, he was born early and alive, was left to die but didn't, so they operated and placed the brain tissue inside his skull and repaired his face. He has lots of issues, but he walks, loves his ipod and generally loves life.

[threesocksmorgan]

doctors get it wrong alot.
they are not always right about disability.
they tell parents that a disabled baby will never be able to do any thing and will be a vegetable...
the baby goes on to have a very good life and surprises everyone.
it is never cut and dried

[blonderthanred]

I think I lot of people don't really understand what it means to be "12 weeks pregnant". I'm 35w pg with my first child and I never knew before that it was measured from the last period, not ovulation or positive test - I never really thought about it.

Explained this plus lengths of time before a woman is likely even to know she's pg to someone on Twitter earlier and I think they actually listened. A small step but I think it's a starting point, if people understand that 12 weeks doesn't mean that women have "three months to do something about it".

[Zara1984]

slutty you made the decision that you felt was right for you. As I am sure did your friend. That's the point of the law giving women a choice. It's all well and good to say other people's choices are wrong - if you know your choice is the one that wouldn't be made illegal.

[BoffinMum]

I am tempted to start a campaign to get Hunt and Miller out. They should not be voicing somewhat extreme personal views in these positions of authority.

[JaffaSnaffle]

I have often wondered why the UK has such high abortion rates. I am also aware that we have very high 'cut off limits', in comparison to other 'liberal' European countries. For example, in Germany, the cut off is 12 weeks for any reason, but is open to later abortions for medical reasons. But I also know that in Germany, an average pregnant woman has many more scans as standard, and the general gynaecological treatment available to most women at any time, had more emphasis placed on it as part of her general health.

Does anyone know the abortion limits for other western European
countries? Obviously there are the extremes such as Ireland etc, but I mean the Scandinavians, France, Italy etc...

I ask because I think that this is a cultural issue as well as a feminist one. And I don't think we are honest in the UK, about abortion on demand, whether we have it in reality or not, and what termination for medical reasons means. (the differentiation between a conditional fatal to life vs a disability, severe or otherwise...)

[PacificDogwood]

It is no coincidence that high termination rates in the UK co-exist with rubbish sex education, early sexualisation of children, a significant stress on gender differences ("DS4 (2.6), do you have a girlfriend in nursery yet?" - said with a fnar snigger by neighbour - FFS!) from an early age, poor self-esteem of many teenagers etc etc. I could go on.

There is also a mistaken belief in 'withdrawal'as a method of contracpetion, lots of myths (you cannot get pregnant the first time or doing it standing up or having a shower afterwards), or (my favorite) people who 'do not believe in contraception' but don't have a problem with using termination as a means to plan their family.

I am entirely pro-choice. I don't have to agree with somebody else's decision what to do with their pregnancy. But that's the point: it is THEIR pregnancy, their decision. It is a huge feminist issue. Much as I on an emotional level feel queasy at the thought of late term terminations, I still think they should be legal. I think rather than investing a lot of time and effort in discussion the legal framework for termination, money, effort and training should go in to looking after our young people and enpowering anybody in a sexual relationship to take responsibility for what they are doing.

[madmouse]

Brilliant post Pacific - dh and I moved here from Holland and were shocked at the percentage of teenage pregnancies and the unwillingness of parents to educate their children. 'No that's the school's job' WTF?

My mum helped me to decide to go on the pill when I was almost 17 and in a stable relationship. Looking back I was too young, but I would have done it anyway and by talking to mum I stayed safe.

[PacificDogwood]

madmouse (were you away?? In that case, I'm glad you're back; if you weren't, ignore me), my opinions on the subject are seen as very suspect by some of my sons' friends' parents and are likely to be heavily influence that I am German.

To my parents', well my mother's, eternal credit, I cannot remember every being sat down and told about the birds and the bees; my brother and I always simply had things explained as questions came up. Although once I knew all about eggs and sperm and had seen some piglets being delivered , I had to ask how the sperm got to the egg and my mum told me how the man's penis gets hard and it fits in the woman's vagina etc etc - I was MOST taken aback that we, as PEOPLE, did it in just the Same Way as animals !!

[PacificDogwood]

by the fact that I am German

I should just give up - 8 boys vs me!!

[PacificDogwood]

or preview

[madmouse]

Pacific I left yes, and not even sure I'm back. Just once in a while a friend tells me about a thread and then I can't help myself

[PacificDogwood]

[OrangeandGoldMrsDeVere]

Doctors are medics.
Therefore the overwhelming majority are heavily influenced by the medical model of disability.

I.e. disability = broken
Broken things need fixing
If you can't fix it, it is better off not being at all.

This is why we have such a huge amount of pressure to screen for certain abnormalities. To get rid before they become a real, live problem.
If a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy because she feels that is the right thing for her I will not judge her. That is 100% genuine. I would support her in the same way I would support anyone else who had lost a child (if they wished it)

I DO judge the society that creates the fear around disability, the stigma and the impossibility of getting the support needed if you do have a disabled child.

This Hunt bloke, the one who wants to force women to give birth to children, remind me, is he part of the very government who is stripping families of their buffer against poverty, disability and illness?

[BoffinMum]

That crossed my mind too, Orange

[madmouse]

Well said MrsDeVere x

[slug]

Interesting isn't it? On a week where it was revealed that 20% of NHS hospital wards are to close the govt slip this little thing into the mix. Not that I am suggesting that they are trying to divert attention mind

And in a week where we discover that a child has starved to death in the UK because of falling through the benefit gaps the govt seems determined to force the birth of more children into poverty.

[tilder]

I reread my posts as u was really worried about the comments about people being disabilist (sp?). My comments weren't meant to be. If I offended am really sorry.

[Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname]

I am furious. He has said it's not down to his Christian beliefs. How can he have any, given the slimy and unethical way he behaved in his last job?

Haven't read all of thread so this has probably been said, but read today that 91% of abortions in the Uk happen before 13 weeks anyway. Stop persecuting the small number of women faced with making that decision later on. Try, I don't know, bringing more kids out of poverty instead or something.

[NewNames]

I don't think Jezza Cunt is smart enough to employ diversion tactics.

And yes, he doesn't 'think' he feels the way he does because of his religious beliefs.... I wish he friggin knew for sure! A man trusted to oversee lots of science and evidenced medical stuff is a homeopathy loving moron who thinks abortions should be lowered to 12 wks with no evidence.