Why aren't you all FURIOUS?!

[NewNames]

And you thought the minister for women and equality was bad... Our HEALTH MINISTER wants to reduce the abortion time limit to 12 weeks!!!!

Front page of tomorrow's Times.

[ttosca]

What do you expect from a government which wants to turn Britain back to the Victorian era?

[BoffinMum]

Thought so.

[swallowedAfly]

from what i could work out they're up since 2001 but down since 2007. as are teen pregnancies. and the percentage of terminations carried out before ten weeks and before 13 weeks is also up.

it's pure moral posturing rather than reacting to any real event i think.

[NewNames]

Are numbers up?

If they are maybe it's because we can't afford to have these accidents any more like we used to.

[BoffinMum]

Maybe numbers are going up because we've have significant inward migration of women of childbearing age into the UK in the last decade ...?

[Saralyn]

jaffasnaffle
You asked about the abortion laws in Scandinavia. Here is the situation in Norway:

Here, the law is more liberal than in the UK until the 12th week (abortion is then solely the womans descicion), but stricter afterwards, and abortion is very difficult to get after the 18th week.

In 1978 women themselves were granted the right to decide whether to terminate their pregnancies or not. This right is limited in time, and is valid until the end of the twelfth week of the pregnancy.

To have an abortion, the woman must herself fill out a form at a doctor?s office, whether that be a general practitioner?s office, or at a hospital. She does not need to justify her decision. The doctor shall, as soon as possible, forward the woman?s request for abortion to the hospital. The abortion is carried out at a hospital, and the procedure is free.

The Abortion Act also regulates what happens if the woman requests an abortion after the twelfth week of the pregnancy. The woman may apply to terminate the pregnancy, either through a doctor, or directly to the hospital. A committee consisting of two doctors makes the decision about so-called late abortions. The committee is obliged to consider the woman?s reasons. If the application is denied, it is automatically re-evaluated by a new committee, called an appeals committee.

According to the law, abortions between the twelfth and the eighteenth week of the pregnancy may be granted under certain circumstances. These include the mother?s health or her social situation; if the baby is in great danger of severe medical complications; or if the woman has become pregnant while under-age, or after sexual abuse. After the eighteenth week the reasons for terminating a pregnancy must be extremely weighty. An abortion will not be granted if the foetus is presumed to be viable at the time that the abortion is carried out."

more here //www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/hod/Documents/Veiledninger_og_brosjyrer/2000/About-the-Abortion-Act.html?id=419252

[OhBuggerandArse]

Slug, thank you for that - I'd missed both stories. Both shameful, both tragedies. How wrong must we be going, that one has to be so careful not to be caught up in other tragic stories because things like this get slipped out when nobody's concentrating?

[swallowedAfly]

it is odd actually that something that is legal in this country is discussed in terms of the numbers must be brought down. it is a legal medical procedure with criteria that must be met to access it and procedures to ensure the people who qualify for the procedure and choose to go ahead with it are well informed in their choice.

the numbers are what the numbers are. muddling moral angst with a legal procedure is a nonsense really. if you think abortion is morally wrong then it would be wrong whether ten people did it or ten million. it is legal - there are criteria - as many people will have one as qualify and choose to do so.

i'm tempted to say 'get over it'.

i personally think that taking vast profits whilst raising prices on essential products and services is hugely immoral and should be illegal. sadly society and government disagrees with me.

[swallowedAfly]

have just looked it up - 64% of abortions are upon women aged 20-34. teen pregs are a drop in the ocean. also 51% of abortions are carried out on women who have already given birth in the past (live or stillborn).

these are women who know how pregnancy comes about and how to prevent it. so as interesting as the points on sex ed and teenagers are they're really not of significant impact to the figures.

[swallowedAfly]

i haven't seen recent stats but when i used to teach about abortion in medical ethics the vast majority were of older women - say 25-35 which often suprised students because the way the topic is discussed people assume the numbers are big because of teenagers. a surprising number of abortions are for women who are married and already have children also.

so whilst i totally agree we need to be better at sex education and teen pregnancy is an issue to be addressed it really isn't a major player in abortion numbers.

[TeaAndHugs]

I am furious. It feels like every time I turn on the radio or look at a newspaper I end up angry about some inane anti-abortion statement that's been made by someone who knows nothing about ordinary women's lives. I'm hoping that one of the pro-choice campaign groups is going to come up with a comprehensive plan of action for tackling this anti-choice government that we can all get behind.

[PacificDogwood]

Oh, flip, I typed a terriffically considered and articulate post about how I agreed with MrsdeVere about this obsesssion with perfection and fear of disablitly, whilst at the same time suggesting this was more society driven rather than led by the medical profession (I have a vested interest in that position ), but cyberspace ate my post and now I have had too much to make much sense.

Wrt to Jeremy Hunt, never was a mispronounciation of a name more apt!

[NewNames]

I don't think Jezza Cunt is smart enough to employ diversion tactics.

And yes, he doesn't 'think' he feels the way he does because of his religious beliefs.... I wish he friggin knew for sure! A man trusted to oversee lots of science and evidenced medical stuff is a homeopathy loving moron who thinks abortions should be lowered to 12 wks with no evidence.

[Tryingtothinkofnewsnazzyname]

I am furious. He has said it's not down to his Christian beliefs. How can he have any, given the slimy and unethical way he behaved in his last job?

Haven't read all of thread so this has probably been said, but read today that 91% of abortions in the Uk happen before 13 weeks anyway. Stop persecuting the small number of women faced with making that decision later on. Try, I don't know, bringing more kids out of poverty instead or something.

[tilder]

I reread my posts as u was really worried about the comments about people being disabilist (sp?). My comments weren't meant to be. If I offended am really sorry.

[slug]

Interesting isn't it? On a week where it was revealed that 20% of NHS hospital wards are to close the govt slip this little thing into the mix. Not that I am suggesting that they are trying to divert attention mind

And in a week where we discover that a child has starved to death in the UK because of falling through the benefit gaps the govt seems determined to force the birth of more children into poverty.

[madmouse]

Well said MrsDeVere x

[BoffinMum]

That crossed my mind too, Orange

[OrangeandGoldMrsDeVere]

Doctors are medics.
Therefore the overwhelming majority are heavily influenced by the medical model of disability.

I.e. disability = broken
Broken things need fixing
If you can't fix it, it is better off not being at all.

This is why we have such a huge amount of pressure to screen for certain abnormalities. To get rid before they become a real, live problem.
If a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy because she feels that is the right thing for her I will not judge her. That is 100% genuine. I would support her in the same way I would support anyone else who had lost a child (if they wished it)

I DO judge the society that creates the fear around disability, the stigma and the impossibility of getting the support needed if you do have a disabled child.

This Hunt bloke, the one who wants to force women to give birth to children, remind me, is he part of the very government who is stripping families of their buffer against poverty, disability and illness?

[PacificDogwood]

[madmouse]

Pacific I left yes, and not even sure I'm back. Just once in a while a friend tells me about a thread and then I can't help myself

[PacificDogwood]

or preview

[PacificDogwood]

by the fact that I am German

I should just give up - 8 boys vs me!!

[PacificDogwood]

madmouse (were you away?? In that case, I'm glad you're back; if you weren't, ignore me), my opinions on the subject are seen as very suspect by some of my sons' friends' parents and are likely to be heavily influence that I am German.

To my parents', well my mother's, eternal credit, I cannot remember every being sat down and told about the birds and the bees; my brother and I always simply had things explained as questions came up. Although once I knew all about eggs and sperm and had seen some piglets being delivered , I had to ask how the sperm got to the egg and my mum told me how the man's penis gets hard and it fits in the woman's vagina etc etc - I was MOST taken aback that we, as PEOPLE, did it in just the Same Way as animals !!

[madmouse]

Brilliant post Pacific - dh and I moved here from Holland and were shocked at the percentage of teenage pregnancies and the unwillingness of parents to educate their children. 'No that's the school's job' WTF?

My mum helped me to decide to go on the pill when I was almost 17 and in a stable relationship. Looking back I was too young, but I would have done it anyway and by talking to mum I stayed safe.