Do Christians really think like this and if so how can we be friends? (long sorry)

[GreatGooglyMoogly]

Following a rather heated, unplanned discussion about Christianity/ God with Christian friends of ours (we are atheists) I have gathered that they believe the following: that not believing in their God is the ultimate Sin and that no matter how you live your life otherwise, ie. if you are good, friendly, responsible, caring, law-abiding people but don't believe in their God you will still go to Hell when you die. It would seem that basically the only thing that matters is that you believe in their God, not how you otherwise live your life. Therefore non-Christian murderers/ criminals, etc are on a par with us in their eyes as none of us believe in God (the ultimate Sin) and we will all therefore go to Hell.

Surely if there is a God He would not be so awful and unwavering? And surely our friends cannot think of us as the ultimate Sinners or they wouldn't associate with us?

[fiddlemama]

Hi GGM. No, Christians do not really think like this. At least not all of us. For what it is worth, I am a Christian and this is how I think:
No-one can judge anyone else. That is for God to do.
No-one can presume to know God's judgement.
God moves within us all whether or not we believe and all love comes from God whether or not we acknowledge it.
I acknowledge the presence of God in my life and I am grateful for his love.
I hope I love and respect people irrespective of whether they choose to acknowledge God or not and I hope that people who do not share my beliefs will respect me.
Childishly simple I know, but it's how I am.
I hope you get your problem resolved. It's so sad when friends fall out.

[MaryBS]

UnquietDad - from what I've read of the Great Green Arkleseizure, I wouldn't fancy a relationship with it, whether I believed in it or not!

You do make a good point though, its one I agree with. You can't force people to believe what you believe, whatever your beliefs. And the nature of faith is that it involves some element of trust rather than hard facts, otherwise it wouldn't be faith.

madamez - the ranters always put me off, no matter what they are ranting about. It may be Richard Dawkins book, or even another Christian ranting on about how my "brand" of Christianity has got it wrong!

Finally, I DON'T think of Christianity as a comfort blanket, or as Richard Dawkins put it, a "dummy for adults". Yes there is an element of comfort there, but sometimes its hard, you'd be amazed at how many people want to have a go at you because you say you are a Christian. People ask you defend wrongdoings by members of the church - paedophilia, adultery, religious wars, and the like, and of course you can't, because they are indefensible, particularly if you believe in living your life as you think a follower of Christ should. And living that life isn't always easy either, like any human we get tempted, its what you do about that temptation. When I "came out" as a Christian at work, hardly anybody spoke to me for 3 weeks. Then when they realised I wasn't going to start preaching to them, they relaxed a bit. Now they've realised they can tease me about it, they've relaxed a bit more! And if they push me too far, I threaten to pray for them

[startouchedtrinity]

I feel much more at peace now that I'm not a Christian. I think it is because I was relying on something external for comfort and strength, and sometimes it was there and sometimes it wasn't. Now it is all internal - it begins and ends with myself.

[Roseylea]

Madamez, IMO friendship has to be about mutual respect and trying to understand each others' lives, even if they are quite different sometimes.

For example, some of my friends are way, way wealthier than I am (or am ever likely to become). In itself, this presents no problem - if however they started going on about how rich they are, Harry-Enfield like then I doubt if I'd be phoning and inviting them for coffee! As it is we hardly ever talk about money - there's no point because having lots of it means that they hardly ever have to think about it - so we talk about everything else under the sun and have a friendship I really enjoy and value.

Another one - I speak pretty fluent German, which my dh doesn't speak at all. If I tried to teach him German against his will (now there's a thought) and insisted that we would only speak German in our house, I don't think he'd be too chuffed!

So it is with religion. With my non-religious friends we talk about everything and anything else. Sometimes the subject arises, and when it does I am very comfortable talking about what it means to me to be a christian - however I'd never foist this upon my friends becaues to do so would be trampling all over them emotionally - not very nice IMO.

Discalimer - Christainity is without doubt a missionary religion. There are christians who are especially gifted at explaining the faith (I know someone who excels at this) but there is a duty upon all christians to "stand up and be counted", to acknowledge your faith as and when the opportunity asises, and not to be ashamed of being a christian.

So I am happy to be friends with people who aren't christians - however I do expect a basic respect from them, for all that I am including my faith - and I extend that same respect back to them for all that they are, including their non-belief. Otherwise it's not a real friendship, is it?

[allgonebellyup]

my dd goes to a very christian school (and we are not religious).

She is often told by the other children "my mum says you and your mum will go to hell when you die."

i hate it all, i hate the way they judge people , eg for sleeping together for marriage, for frowning upon me for letting my gay friends stay with me.
Thats hardly a very christian way to be, is it?

[speedymama]

Why send your DD to a very christian school then if you don't like what they stand for?

[moljam]

only read op but if you are not a believer it shouldnt bother you where they say your going to end up as you dont believe in it.

[allgonebellyup]

because we're in the catchment area and its a very good school in all other respects. The first school she was in for 2 months(same area, we put the christian school last on our list)she was bullied by little shits whose dads were all in prison.
So i had to make her change school, and the christian school was the only one with a space.

[allgonebellyup]

lol at my own words "their dads are all in prison" !

[speedymama]

Ah. Well at least you have her in a decent school now.

[bossykate]

catholicism isn't particularly bibliophilic. there is much more focus on the new testament than the old.

[Cammelia]

As indeed for most Christians in the move away from Judaism

[speedymama]

This is my understanding.

Christianity is based on JC's teachings which were an upgrade on Old Testament teachings, e.g. an eye for an eye in the OT was upgraded to turn the other cheek in the NT.

The OT is an historic account of Jewish history whereas the NT is an account of JC life and the early days of Christian church (please correct me if I am wrong).

Consequently, as far as I am aware, christian teaching should be rooted in the NT, not the OT. The OT provides historical context to the lineage of JC and the history of the relationship between the Jews and Gentiles because it was mainly the Gentiles who became Christians when his Apostles went out proselyting.

That's why I don't understand fundamentalist Christians.

[Cammelia]

Agree with that speedymama

Lol at concept of "upgrading" though

[speedymama]

I could not think of a better word unfortunately

[seabiscuit]

Hi all, wondered if I could get your thoughts on something...

I'm an agnostic/CoEish type, expecting my first in Nov. My in-laws are strict catholics and have shocked me a bit by saying the baby must be christened within weeks to stop it going to hell or limbo or something.
My very laid back DH is pretty lapsed and not bothered either way. The thought of arranging something like that so soon after the birth makes me feel exhausted, but if it means so much to them and would really upset them if we didn't then I would. Also our local church is CoE, we got married there and they didn't seem to mind - would this be likely to satisfy them for christening ? Advice much appreciated...

[BrownSuga]

OP. Please ask your "christian" friends, why they believe there is a hell? The bible clearly states in Genesis 3:19 what happens to the dead. "For dust you are and to dust you will return". It also tells us the state of the dead in Ecclesiastes 9:5 "The living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all". As a hope for the future it tells us in John 5:28,29 "the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".

God is not awful or cruel; Exodus 34:6,7 says he is a "God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin" and Psalms 33.5 tells us "he is a lover of righteousness and justice". So how could a God with those qualities allow a place such as Hell to exist. He doesn't, and it doesn't.

[BrownSuga]

seabiscuit, jesus was an adult when he was baptised, setting the example for us. A baptism is a dedication to do God's will, how can a baby make that choice? A person needs to learn about God, decide if they wish to dedicate their life, then get baptised. It is an adult decision.

Your in-laws may not agree, but there is no hell or limbo.

[fiddlemama]

Seabiscuit
I am converted Catholic and let me reassure you Catholic church no longer recognises limbo so rest easy about time scale though if your ILs very set in their old fashioned beliefs that's up to you.
My 3 all christened in CofE and then took their first HC in Catholic church without problem after I converted. ALL Christian baptism recognised by Catholic church. Best of wishes for your first confinement and look forward to his/her christening without undue stress

[muppetgirl]

My mother and nan fell out regarding just this matter!!

My nan -devout Catholic wanted my brother to be 'churched' and my mother (catholic) and very definately my dad did not.

They didn't and my nan came round. We were all christened c of e (dad did not want catholic and would comprimise at c of e) and we all went to c of e schools.


Your child gets brought up in your religion. NOt the religion of your parents.

My ds was christened c of e and it tends to be me who takes him to church.

[startouchedtrinity]

There is plenty in the Nt about non-believers going to hell. The Gospel writers have Jesus saying just this. And a lot about 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. It's tempting to think that the NT is all about love and peace and social justice, but it isn't.

The problem with organised religion is that it divides us. I am this and you are that - the recipe for war.

[BrownSuga]

definitely the NT talks about what will happen to the wicked in the future, and this vile system at armageddon but i'd be interested to know the scriptures jesus talks about hell.

[BrownSuga]

or is hould say the going to hell and being tortured for eternity scriptures.