A good, if trivial, example why pseudo-scientific thinking MUST be challenged.

[BertrandRussell]

This is a bit of a thread about a thread, but I hope it's allowed to stay- it illustrates perfectly why pseudo science can be dangerous and needs to be challenged, and why critical thinking is vital. Someone asked whether it was OK to have a child's bed positioned under a window. People reassured them that it was fine, so long as the window was properly secure and there were no blind cords to be a danger. There were still posters saying things like "I wouldn't- I don't know why, but I just wouldn't".

They have unconsciously absorbed the need to make sure the window is properly safe- but haven't absorbed that once you have done that it is safe. That there is something else going on that makes it dangerous. So an Old Husband's Tale continues.

I heard once of a family where they always cut the end off a joint of meat before roasting it "because that's what you have to do". When it was investigated, it turned out that 50 years ago, there had been a joint too big for the oven, so the end was cut off to make it smaller. 2 generations later, that had become just something you did when you roasted meat. Nobody questioned it.

If you feel uncomfortable putting your child's bed under a window, or like doing anything else superstitious, like greeting magpies or thinking that white feathers are sending you messages or chatting to robins because they make you think of your dead mother maybe that's just me that's fine. But do it in the clear knowledge that you are being irrational, and that it isn't real. Because once you stop thinking rationally about these things you are easy prey for charlatans and woo merchants.

[Bolognese]

MilkTwoSugarsThanks Yes I know the placebo affect works. I did not say that difficulty getting to sleep was a sleep disorder, I was implying it could be a sleep disorder. If you turn to homeopathy then you might not go to your doctor.

Even if herbal remedies work, and I know some do, what do you think they are? They are chemicals, the same chemicals that go into medicines! Its a matter of what chemicals you takes rather than the form you take them in. My local doctor has prescribed me certain herbal remedies in the past, I can't say they worked but that doesn't mean after decades of his rational training he was wrong to suggest trying them.

I agree a few pounds on a herbal remedy isn't the root of all evil but I have yet to meet anyone that stops there!

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit
I have many friends that have different beliefs from me, so just want to check that you know I am not directing any ill will personally at you.

Christmas, as a holiday, wow that takes me back to school. Well from what I remember christmas was originally a holiday called Saturnalia, back in the roman times, a bit like a bank holiday, long before jesus and christianity. Its coming back to me, that's where gingerbread men came from lol.

Several hundred years later christianity was trying to convert pagans so 'took over' the holiday. Apparently using the excuse that jesus was born then but changing very little else (drinking, sex, singing etc). This is all historical fact.

After a bit of personal googling:
Christmas Tree - pagan custom
Mistletoe - Norse custom
Christmas Presents - pre-crhistian Rome
Santa Claus - Nicholas bones (sainted 'a bit late in' in the 19th century) supplanted a pagan goddess, Grandmother Pasqua Epiphania in 1087 to become the cult of Nicholas. aka St Nick (dutch translation Santa Claus).

A German illustrator started sketching the modern santa in the 19th century, creating the home at the North Pole, a workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. In the 20th century it was Coca Cola that gave Santa his costume.

Perhaps bodenbiscuit you could give us an idea why you think christmas has anything to do with jesus.

I agree that santa is an irrational idea. But your whole argument is flawed. Adults dont believe in Santa, some adults do believe in supernatural deities, feathers, birds, herbs, the afterlife........

[bodenbiscuit]

Well some Christians think it's wrong to celebrate Christmas actually because of its pagan ties and because nobody can be sure what the birth of Christ actually is....but that's a whole other thread. Pagan doesn't actually equal bad in itself though.

I don't think my argument is flawed - it's just an observation. 'Adults' may not believe in Santa but they still try to make their children believe in him. I don't think it makes any sense. As a child I found it strange that my parents would lie to me and make someone up like that. I think it is no more rational than finding a feather comforting.

So it seems that for some people on the thread, what is rational is what they themselves consider to be rational. If they have customs borne of 'tradition' rather than science then that's perfectly OK. Which leads me back to my original point - that the purpose of this thread is to ridicule people who have a faith and try to derail discussion.

[ABitBemusedToday]

That last paragraph, bodenbiscuit, is very true.

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit I have actually met a christian family ( it was the mother) that refuses to celebrate christmas, all the neighbors felt really sorry for their 3 DD. ironically the husband makes missiles for a living! Very morale.

I have never heard anyone mention pagans apart from christians. Interesting obsession for a psychologist there. No one else cares what a group of people 2000 years ago believed in, apart from religious people of course! Why?

I am sorry that your parents lied to you, perhaps that is why you not believe in supernatural deities? I never lied to my DC, they picked it up via media and peer group and as soon as they asked me if it is true, I told them the truth.

There is no argument about what is rational, that is set in stone. Belief and faith is all irrational. every since the beginning of time no one has even given a rational reason explaining anything supernatural. Believe if you want but dont pretend its rational. That is the point of this thread.

FYI I am off to drink wine and socialise. Wont be posting again tonight.

[bodenbiscuit]

But, actually that wasn't the point of the thread. The point of the thread was to assert that people who have a faith or a belief not based in science as we know it or as far as the OP is concerned, Need to be challenged and told that they are wrong. It's just dressed up as something else pretty disingenuous.

[BertrandRussell]

"Which leads me back to my original point - that the purpose of this thread is to ridicule people who have a faith and try to derail discussion."
No it isn't

[DioneTheDiabolist]

OP, your assertion that someone must be challenged if they feel differently to you about the position of a bed is not at all scientific.

Just because you assume that this has to do with superstition or OHT, does not mean that it is true. Or even likely. You said upthread that on some level sufferers of panic attack "know" that it isn't real. That is false. Panic attacks are very real. The word "challenge" does not mean the same thing as "question".

I am seeing nothing particularly
scientific in your posts, just an assumption that you are right and those who disagree with you need to be corrected.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

But on a scientific note, structurally, the weakest points of a wall are windows and doors. So it makes sense from a scientific point of view to place your sleeping children away from the weakest parts of the structure.

The people that you are accusing of pseudoscientific thinking are the ones whose choice makes sense. Even if they were not consciously aware of the sound science behind their choice.

[BertrandRussell]

"But on a scientific note, structurally, the weakest points of a wall are windows and doors. So it makes sense from a scientific point of view to place your sleeping children away from the weakest parts of the structure"

Why?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

If you are seeking to place your child in the safest part of the room.

[BertrandRussell]

Safest- in case the house falls down? In case it falls down during the specific hours the child is in bed?

I suspect that if the house falls down the exact positioning of the bed is unlikely to make much difference..............

Just to elaborate. The poster I was talking about had very good reasons for positioning the child's bed under the window. She wanted to do it- it would have made life much nicer for her child. But she was held back by irrational worries. So discussing the worries, deciding whether they were rational or irrational would have been helpful to her.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Just safest. That is if you are going to use science to find the safest part of the room.

How were her fears a result of pseudo science?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

It sounds as though that poster could have done with reassurance, rather than challenging.

[BertrandRussell]

Did you notice that I changed "challenged" to "questioned"?

The poster got lots of reassurance. And I hope put the bed in to position that was best for her child. She would have had no room to play if the bed was anywhere else.

What does "just safest" mean? Under what circumstances would a child come to harm if their bed was under a window, but not if it wasn't?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

If the window smashed inwards.

[BertrandRussell]

"If the window smashed inwards." So nothing about the structural integrity of the house?

Wen did an upstairs window last smash inwards in your experience?

[AlanPacino]

You said upthread that on some level sufferers of panic attack "know" that it isn't real. That is false. Panic attacks are very real.

I think the point being made was that the cause was most likely a phobic response. That the person didn't logically need to feel panic in that situation. Not that the attack was false. If the the level of panic was logical then it wouldn't be a panic attack as such and would just be the necessary adrenaline rush to make yourself safe.

[AlanPacino]

Need to be challenged and told that they are wrong.

The crux is where irrational/magical thinking causes suffering. It wasn't long ago that a poster posted for advice on a haunting. It turned out her daughter had been seeing and hearing things and the op felt that her daughter was being followed by a spirit. Clearly she should have been taking her dd to the GP. Who here feels the op should have consulted an exorcist or made an appt. the docs? This is a prime example of magical thinking having the potential to cause very real and unnecessary suffering.

[Devilishpyjamas]

Panic attacks are not usually phobic responses.

[BertrandRussell]

"and told they are wrong"

Oh, I do wish people wouldn't make things up.

Panic attacks are not necessarily to do with phobias. Of course they feel real. But I have never met a person who suffered from panic attacks who wasn't aware at some level - maybe not while the attack is happening- that it wasn't real, and wanted to stop feeling that way.

Another important thing to remember- I wasn't actually talking about people who have specific issues to deal with. But focussing on such people is a fantastic way of derailing the discussion. And incidentally, making me look like an arsehole. I don't mind that, I suppose. But I would really really prefer to talk about the subject, not what a git I am. Because it's really interesting!

[DioneTheDiabolist]

The weakest point of a wall is the window. The last time I saw an upstairs window smash inwards was last summer. It was smashed with a hurly ball.

Panic attacks are very real. They
are observable and measurable. Treatment can help sufferers. We treat panic attacks because they are real.

Your OP was about how a Mnetter's unease at putting a child's bed under
a window was the result of pseudoscientific thinking, superstition and OHTs. The situation in your OP has nothing to do with pseudo science.

[BertrandRussell]

"The situation in your OP has nothing to do with pseudo science."

No. Quite a lot to so with superstition and OHTs though.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

And I wouldn't say you were a git OP, a bit of an eejit with a lack of awareness is closer to the mark.

[BertrandRussell]

"And I wouldn't say you were a git OP, a bit of an eejit with a lack of awareness is closer to the mark.wink"

Yes, you can get entirely the wrong idea of people when you decide to read people's posts selectively and make things up. You've been posting lies on my threads for ages. Can't imagine why you keep doing it. Very odd. But hey ho, if it keeps you from doing the same to people in real life then it serves a useful purpose.