A good, if trivial, example why pseudo-scientific thinking MUST be challenged.

[BertrandRussell]

This is a bit of a thread about a thread, but I hope it's allowed to stay- it illustrates perfectly why pseudo science can be dangerous and needs to be challenged, and why critical thinking is vital. Someone asked whether it was OK to have a child's bed positioned under a window. People reassured them that it was fine, so long as the window was properly secure and there were no blind cords to be a danger. There were still posters saying things like "I wouldn't- I don't know why, but I just wouldn't".

They have unconsciously absorbed the need to make sure the window is properly safe- but haven't absorbed that once you have done that it is safe. That there is something else going on that makes it dangerous. So an Old Husband's Tale continues.

I heard once of a family where they always cut the end off a joint of meat before roasting it "because that's what you have to do". When it was investigated, it turned out that 50 years ago, there had been a joint too big for the oven, so the end was cut off to make it smaller. 2 generations later, that had become just something you did when you roasted meat. Nobody questioned it.

If you feel uncomfortable putting your child's bed under a window, or like doing anything else superstitious, like greeting magpies or thinking that white feathers are sending you messages or chatting to robins because they make you think of your dead mother maybe that's just me that's fine. But do it in the clear knowledge that you are being irrational, and that it isn't real. Because once you stop thinking rationally about these things you are easy prey for charlatans and woo merchants.

[BertrandRussell]

"So Bertram, in your OP you state that irrational thoughts MUST be challenged and that critical thinking is vital, but at 13:39 you state that you would do anything to allay someone's anxieties."

No, I didn't. I said I would do anything I can to allay someone's anxieties. A bit different!

[Bolognese]

MilkTwoSugarsThanks How do you determine the difference between irrational beliefs that harm and ones that don't? Most people would claim their supernatural beliefs were harmless, bring comfort, promote goodness etc.

Has anyone believing in white feathers ever taken that belief further and paid snake oils sellers to talk to that loved one? Has anyone every believing in feathers ever let unresolved grief plague them for decades instead of getting help to come to terms with it? Has anyone who believes in white feathers ever taken it as a sign to seek laying on of hands for their cancer rather than talking to their doctor?

Most, if not all, irrational beliefs have the potential to cause harm and suffering.

[Devilishpyjamas]

You said you would do 'anything' to allay their anxiety (about a bed next to a window?) which rather suggests you're judging some anxieties as more reasonable than others.

Sometimes anxieties can't be 'fixed'z

[bodenbiscuit]

Bolognese - so do you think the promotion of supernatural entities like Santa is ok? I'm just interested in why people are always so quick to cite religion as the reason for the ills of the world and then mention ISIS which has bugger all to do with Islam.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bertrand - sorry, you've now lost me completely. Do you think all pseudoscience and irrational beliefs MUST be challenged every time? That is what I took from your OP. If you do I think you are wrong. If you think that some should be challenged and that there wil a time and a place to do so and times when it will be inappropriate then I agree with you.

Bolognese - I understand what you are saying, bit I don't think that all irrational thought MUST be challenged. If it's harmful to the individual a direct challenge to their thoughts might cause more problems. And what one person considers irrational another may not.

I'm not sure organised religion can be lumped in with pseudoscience and irrational thought tbh.

[BertrandRussell]

"You said you would do 'anything' to allay their anxiety (about a bed next to a window?) which rather suggests you're judging some anxieties as more reasonable than others"

No. I said I would do "anything I can" to allay their anxieties.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bertrand - I think if you are going to insist that the "anything I can do" is different, then to answer the question you asked...

...anything I can to allay the anxiety. Wouldn't you?

then no, I wouldn't. Not if all I could do would be of no benefit to them or could potentially upset them. That would be wrong. I would, however, help them access help that is appropriate for them.

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit Santa is not a supernatural entity, he is a fictional fantasy character like, Winne the Pooh, Buzz Lightyear, Snow White, Zombies and all the others. Yes during my DS's childhood I pretended they were all true at some point, it was fun, but as my child matured and I taught him logical thinking he was able to work out the difference (around 6/7) between what is true and what is fiction. Had he not worked it out I would have told him the truth by 8ish.

Did you know that ISIS stands for the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant". See that first word there, Islamic! If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... its a duck. Not sure what point your making

MilkTwoSugarsThanks I actually agree that not ALL should be challenged but its a very grey area. In real life its a lot easier to tell what would and wouldn't harm a person more. So I would be more.. circumspect before saying anything. On a public forum like MN, posters are asking for public critique and have the option to stop reading. If they were in a private group eg a christian prayer network, I wouldn't join but on here its almost all up for comment.

[Bolognese]

MilkTwoSugarsThanks "not sure organised religion can be lumped in with pseudoscience and irrational thought tbh"
Granted some are older than others, have more money than others and more followers than others but how are they different from movements like Wicca, Jediism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Scientology, Branch Davidians, The Moonies, The Ku Klux Klan, Heavens gate, ISIS. Is there a difference between a cult and a religion?

[bodenbiscuit]

Oh fgs - ISIS are TERRORISTS. Just because they call themselves Islamic to (unsuccessfully) justify murdering people. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. I could call myself a cat but that doesn't mean I am one.

And as for Santa - it's a supernatural concept to a child. How is it rational to lie to a child about a fictional character who has nothing to do with Christmas?

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bolognese - I think either can be equally dangerous!

I got the impression from the OP that the irrational thought and pseudoscience in this case was more about Bach Flower Remedies and doing things because your parents did and you never thought to question it. I don't think there's anything to be gained by challenging someone about things like that, especially if it helps them on a personal level, and I don't think it's possible to do it without looking like a patronising arrogant dick!

[bodenbiscuit]

Quite, Milk.

[BertrandRussell]

Can I replace the work "challenge" with the word "question". That is what I meant- but I can see how some people don't hear them as synonyms.

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit so your saying terrorists can't be religious? Yes ISIS are using religion to justify murder but whilst we all disagree with them, exactly where is your evidence they they don't believe in what they are doing? Are you saying they dont believe in an Islamic god?

What then do you make of George Bush saying god told him to invade Iraq and kill half a million Iraqis, was he a terrorist, was he lying about believing in god?

Have you been to N.Ireland, the terrorists were so successful they are now part of the government.

What about Nelson Mandela, he admitted he was guilty of hundreds of acts of terror and bombings but he was also a strong believer in christianity. Was he lying or deluded?

The Inquisition? Does that mean the pope wasn't catholic?

If god committed acts of terror does that mean he is no longer anything to do with christianity! That is were logic takes you.

[bodenbiscuit]

I think most Muslims would be offended by that sort of sentiment. ISIS have a twisted view of what Islam is. Or more likely, they are just murderers. People having the view that ISIS are Muslim is what causes division and unrest in communities.

George W Bush is, for me one of the most corrupt liars in history and his father was even worse....

There is certainly plenty of corruption in the Catholic Church. Just because there are corrupt figures associated with religion, or who associate themselves with religion, that does not mean that to have a faith is irrational. These people have nothing to do with God in reality.

[bodenbiscuit]

People may call themselves by a certain name but their actions are what shows them for who they really are.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bertrand - you can change it, but I'm not sure it makes a massive difference, maybe because of the emphasis on the must and vital.

For example - A takes Back Flower Night Rescue Remedy ('cause let's face it, they really are pseudoscience) because it helps her sleep. Firstly - as it doesn't affect you, what gives you the right to question that? Secondly - what would you hope to achieve by questioning that? Thirdly - if A does realise that there's no real reason for it to work, it no longer will work and poor A can't sleep at night because you opened your gob with an unwanted/unwelcome/inappropriate view. Well done.

*that's a generic you, not necessarily you personally.

I do think children must be encouraged to have enquiring minds and taught how to think critically.

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit seriously, Santa again? He is not a supernatural concept to a child. A child is not born with an innate understanding of natural/supernatural. Santa is perfectly believable, reindeers exist, airplanes exist, men in costumes exist, sleighs exist, presents exist and they can even go visit him in lapland/local supermarket.

It is rational to lie to a child about santa because a)they enjoy it b)its one of our cultures joint rituals c)its a good way to give them presents without them knowing it cost their parents money d)its a way to persuade them to be good (FYI not me) e)its an easy way to explain things/keep them safe when they are to young to fully comprehend f)its a useful way to teach them about reality (at 7 I got my DS to work out how fast Santa had to travel to deliver presents to every child in the world, works out something like 5 million mph)

What would be irrational would be to continue that lie beyond young children, or not to teach them rational thinking and allow them to grow up believing in pseudo-science.

Why is Santa nothing to do with christmas, he is the central figure in the holiday, the one who brings the presents!

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit everyone is offended by ISIS, not just Muslims. Maybe ISIS have a different interruption of Islam than the majority. Just like 40,000 christians denominations all disagree on what christianity is. eg I would suppose you would say Uganda christians have got their stance on gays wrong but you probably wouldn't say they aren't christian.

You might think its unhelpful to say ISIS are nothing to do with islam but I would suggest we cant address the problem until we address the fact that it is an extreme version of islam. Its not christians traveling to Syria to join the group.


"These people have nothing to do with God in reality." So your saying that e.g. the pope has nothing to do with god? Yet millions of people live their live based on his pronouncements. Isn't that irrational?

[bodenbiscuit]

Well Christmas is supposed to celebrate the birth of Jesus, although there are a lot of pagan things about it that have become 'tradition' - a whole other thread I suppose. I actually don't agree that the reasons you cite for lying to a child about FC are rational, but that's because we don't all think the same way. I would say the concept is supernatural - how does Santa get into people's houses? Magic apparently...

I have my own view on the Pope. And I don't think he is who he says. Personally I wouldn't be able to be Catholic for that reason. Just because there are a lot of corrupt humans who have influence that doesn't mean it's the truth in the end. Or that religion is the reason they behave the way that they do. They behave that way because they choose to.

[Lanark2]

Its not a draft, its qi

[Bolognese]

MilkTwoSugarsThanks

Bach Flower Remedies, akin to homeopathy aka a placebo.

If an adult wants to take a placebo to help then sleep, then I dont care. What I do care about is about the tens of thousands of people who are being conned, buying this crap. People not getting proper medical help for their sleep disorder because of irrational belief. And (what the op is about) passing this nonsense on to their children.

These things never happen in isolation, so I would be shocked to find one person that has this isolated quirk of one single superstition that has no other affect on their lives. Whats even worse is simpleton fannys that encourage and support these harmful beliefs.

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

Bolognese - there is scientific evidence that the placebo effect genuinely works, even when it's known that it's a placebo. When does difficulty in sleeping become a sleep disorder?

FWIW I struggle to sleep at night sometimes, but I don't want to go to the doctor and have it treated with chemicals. It's not often enough and it's not a disorder. Is a few pounds on a herbal remedy the root of all evil? I don't take anything btw!

[Bolognese]

bodenbiscuit Why are you still on about santa? I don't share your world view. To me christmas has nothing to do with jesus, if he even existed 2000 years ago, I am told he wasn't even born in December. In 2016 christmas has nothing to do with religion, its a holiday for family, food, children, drinking and presents. Santa was a very very small part of it.

I can't think of anything worse than having to go to church/mosque/temple on christmas day and feel sorry for the few neighbors children who do have to. Not aware of what some people think paganism has to do with christmas either, I do know most christian traditions are copied from earlier religions, is that what you are referring to?

Seriously your saying the only way Santa gets into a house is supernatural? The tradition of using chimneys is from the Victorian time when children actually did climb up the insides of chimneys! So it makes perfect sense. Looking at my fireplace i could easily see a child getting in it. But I would never let have let my DC even find out or try, so how would they know better? In more modern times we have an invention called a door, very supernatural I know!

bodenbiscuit I get the impression you belong to one of the religions that believe their ideology is right and the other hundreds of religions are wrong?

[bodenbiscuit]

Actually, you're wrong with that judgement. But anyway...

So Bolognese - what is Christmas about then? How did it come to be a festival or holiday?

I'm using Santa as an example in the same way the op did a bed under a window. Not all people have chimneys and most people lock their doors at night. Not to mention the strange idea that Santa can get around the whole world in one night...