Playgroups pushing religion - what to do?

[madamez]

I take Ds, who is 2, to lots of playgroups, any of which are in church halls or similar, and some of which are run by church organisations. We stopped going to one, partly because of changing his nursery days due to my work patterns but partly because there were a few too many invitations to Bilble study class. Now, the newest one we have started going to is run by the Salvation Army - we preiviously went ot another SA one but the newer one is much nearer where we live - and much nicer in terms of equipment, activities, etc. Trouble is, at the end of singing time, they sing a hymn/prayer. While this is not going to bother DS in the least, it annoys me that they are peddling this stuff in a playgroup that's supposed to be for the local community (which is very diverse). Should I say something ie ask if it's necessary to ''believe" to attend the group? Or should we just go elsewhere...

[texasrose]

Frances5 your poor ds! It mus have been very scary for you all. Isn't it incredible that no-one died?

Talking of church-based playgroups I can think of at last 3 in Adeyfield that are all lovely and welcoming! The churches there do so much for the local community. (my granny lived in Adeyfield so I know it well!)

[frances5]

texasrose, My four year old son still gets nightmares from Buncefield. We live in Adeyfield so we were just outside the exclusion zone. He is convinced that the "Big Bang" happened in Luton because we pass Buncefield on the way to Luton!

I think that if madamez chooses to go to a mother and toddler group run by a church organisation then she has to accept that there might be prayers. I think the problem is with her rather than Sally army. If there are no secular playgroups why does madamez get off arse and start her own mother and toddler group?

The fees at mother and toddler groups barely cover the cost of biscuits yet alone hire of the hall. I went to a lovely group which only charged 50p a family. The old ladies washed up and the church provided the hall for free. The church also paid for the children to go on annual outing every summer to Woodside farm.

The church provides a service to the community. It promotes a way of life and teaches people to be tolerant. Bible classes, Hymms and prayers are part of their way of life. The group allows non believers to attend and prehaps madamez should show some tolerance to the people who run the group

[Helgand]

Don't let other people wind you up on this one (me included it would seem) - make the decision which is best for your child. I hated dd1s nursery so moved her to a childminder, had concerns about the childminder so gave up work and was then really unhappy with the preschool but finally let go because she loves it there and tbh she would rather be there than with me. I would really love to homeschool her but she is desperate to go to school and deep down I know that a regular school would suit her better. I'm not suggesting you're paranoid like me, just wanted to share something I've struggled with which is vaguely in the same area, although I do seem to have gone off at quite a tangent.

[nearlythree]

The Sally Army are usually among the first on the scene at any disaster, even those abroad, and are also the last to leave.

As for what they do here, they are among the very few who pick up the pieces in the parts of our society that are forgotten. And they ask for nothing in return.

[deckthehillswithboughsofmummy]

I run a stay and play group in a local church. I don't attend church but every first and third week of the month the methodist minister comes in and holds a pram service in the church. Our parents are told about it and it is entirely up to them wether or not they take part. About half follow the minister through to the church the rest stay in the hall with me and play.

[Pruni]

Message withdrawn

[texasrose]

I must second Edam's praise for the Sally Army. I've never been a member either but there was a big catastrophe near where I live last year that could have resulted in many deaths but thankfully didn't (the Buncefield oil place going uu in flames). Anyway the SA were first on scene alongside the fire crew and they worked round the clock providing emergency shelter and food for the hudreds of families who were exacuated from their homes. They are still hailed as local heroes now.

BTW off the subject but my claim to fame is that even tho I only live a mere 7 or 8 miles away from Buncefield I slept through the explosions...and they were heard in Holland

[edam]

I think if you want to object to Christian activities there are far easier targets to pick than a Sally Army playgroup. Off the top of my head I can't think of anything the Sally Army have ever done wrong. They are of, and for, the working people and care for the disposessed of all kinds. They would never walk past someone in need AFAIK. (I'm not and have never been a member, btw.)

Since having ds and moving out of London we've been invited to lots of things by various Christian denominations, from the United Reformed children's carol service, the Youth Mission thingamabob Christmas concert, the Christingle service at the local CofE church... we've gone to those that looked interesting and have never been made to feel as if we are being recruited.

[CountTo10LordsaLeaping]

Following on from others advice, if you've really got an issue with it leave before the end or go somewhere else that isn't attached to/run by a church.

The Sally Army aren't about forcing the religious message on people or needing people around them to believe. Their music and prayers are part of who they are and they use this to spread the word how they see it whilst they're out doing a lot of hard work for those that need it. They just want to share their happiness and spread a little of it. Is that really that harmful. You don't have to join in with it.

[HumphreyCushiONtheFirstNoel]

Or even "Have you considered starting your own playgroup?"

[HumphreyCushiONtheFirstNoel]

Have you should considered starting your own playgroup?

[madamez]

Well pardon me but I was kind of under the impression that grumpy ranting now and again about things that irritate one was not that uncommon on MN. I'm not, after all, suggesting banning anyone else's hobbies.

[nearlythree]

madamez, do you have any idea how intolerant your posts sound? Were a Christian to post about other beliefs - and the superiority of our own - in the kind of language you use we'd be called bigots.

[nutcracker]

I am not religious in the slightest but Dd1 went to 2 playgroups that were run by churches and she took part in prayers etc and tbh it didn't bother me at all, was just glad I could get her in to a playgroup in the first place.

Also Dd2 has just started going to Girls Brigade which is quite religious but she loves it so again thats is fine with me, she gets to have fun and do activities that she wouldn't do at home so great.

[madamez]

Well, groups every where are of course different. And I pay the fee to use the group just like everyone else who attends - so I don't entirely see where being 'grateful' comes into it. But, like someone else said, I'm not wild about my DS being taught mythology as though it's historical fact. But, whatever. Maybe another look through the health centre brochure will find us a place without an agenda.
And when it comes to "finding out more about religion", which area should I concentrate my studies on? The interesting field of comparative mythology and which myths show up in all the different systems versus which can be shown to have any origins in historical fact? Or the long history of war, genocide, homophobia, racism, corruption, misogyny and child abuse that runs alongside the useful good work?

[morningpaper]

In my local (very popular) playgroup this morning, I walked past a roomful of about 500 toys that were being wrapped up by old ladies (all volunteers of course) to give to the toddlers at the christmas parties.

The group is run by a team of Christian volunteers and serves about 250 families each week.

The ultimate "purpose" of this is mission - i.e. it is the church's raison d'etre to be in mission and in service to needy people (young families) in the wider world. However, to call all of this "annoying peddling of religion" is very ungrateful and shows that you probably need to learn MORE about religion, rather than shunning it!

[texasrose]

Hmmm....I've run a church-based toddler group for 4 years now and it's very much part of the local community. In fact there are only 3 christians out of the 30odd mothers and carers who come along.

I hope the remaining 27 don't feel that we peddle religion. We usually don't even sing any religious songs (just nursery rhymes) but at christmas we do have stories and plays that tell the nativity story. And we sing 'Little Donkey!' A few years ago we also gave little booklets to the mums with a christian message / the nativity story in more grown-up language, along with some chocs and an invite to the christmas services. THis yera we are doing a charity donation instead.

Also we advertise church services, and groups in the church for older children, so that people can choose to come along if they want to. We have made an effort though to show people we care about them (we gave supermarket vouchers to one cash-strapped mum recently) because IMO actions speak far louder than words. We've joined the Pre-School Learning Alliance and set up a parenting-book library to help support mums and be the best practical help that we can be. So what do you non-christians think of this approach? I am genuinely interested because mos of the mums we get are not christian and they're all very lovely and polite and would never criticise!

[madamez]

Thanks for all comments. Yes, I am over-reacting - it's no worse than them choosing to sing one of the kiddy songs I loathe (and there's probably a whoole other thread in Which Nursery Song is the most Annoying), but the creeping resurgence of religious bigotry and nonsense in the wider world concerns me.

[Helgand]

Madamez - I guess this is all giving you a bit of a headache; I would really urge you to try and look at the positive things you get from this group and weigh that up against the things you feel uncomfortable with. Also, it could be worth finding out more about Christianity in itself, rather than just looking at the example of Christians you come across so you can understand where these people are coming from and which aspects you are un/happy with as regards bringing up your child. I really hope you manage to find the balance you are looking for.

[JinglePrunes]

Well, if you believe there is no god and children shouldn't be indoctrinated with stories as if they are real...then there is a lot wrong with it.
If you strongly suspect your local council is happy to have churches running playgroup facilities in order to pick up their slack in providing services, then you might just go along and use the services, willingly given, and choose to ignore the religious aspects.
I agree that complaining about it is crass.
Don't forget that playgroups usually charge, purposely welcome 'unbelievers' and that one can always donate toys etc if one feels bad about 'duping' them (I did.)

[lulumama]

i think you can attend and not say anything re the religious aspect

or leave before the end

a little bit backhanded to attend a group..knowing it is run by the sally army....because it has excellent facilities and then got cross because they sing a hymn, pray or invite you to join a bible study class. You could just accept the hospitality and not say anything...

or contact your HV - they tend to have lists of local playgroups

sure start, parenting 2000 ( not sure if that is nationwide or regional) and NCT all run regular local groups ..perhaps one of those might be more to your taste..

what is wrong with a hymn or prayer to thank god ( whichever god you believe in) for a good day or what ever else it might be?

[JinglePrunes]

Oh I had a long post typed out then read the thread - you have a choice in the matter, so if you are uncomfrotable with it, then don't go.
Where I used to live, there were few playgroups that weren't church-related. I used to go to a huge one, and just skipped the religious bit at the beginning. I am a fervent believer in not forcing a religious agenda on those who have no choice but to attend eg state schools, but fgs, you are free to not attend.
The playgroup I went to had a number of people who went round chatting to lonely mothers (or rather, mothers who were having a five-minute breather and a cup of coffee in peace ) but they never mentioned religion. If they had, I would have stopped going, but I did sort of assume the point of them was community outreach...

[Saturn74]

If you're not "keen on all that sort of rubbish", then I don't understand why you go there at all.
Perhaps I have misunderstood your posts, but it seems rather unfair that these people have made you and your child welcome, but you see their beliefs as rubbish, and attend their group because it is "much nicer in terms of equipment, activities, etc"?