Who here is an atheist?

[TwigTwoolett]

just wondering ..

[texasrose]

Yes, I find that offensive too.

However...it doesn't mean that what is at the heart of ity all is untrue.

[missymoosal]

On an individual level I agree with you but unfortunately there is a human need to band together with like minded people in the same'club' and that's where the problems begin.

[texasrose]

There is nothing wrong with clubs generally, or churches in particular. It is like you say a basic human need to be in community and we tend to find that with like minded people.

Just like no one is perfect, no church is perfect either. If you accept that and keep on accepting and forgiving each other as and when problems occur, the church is a fantastic place to be.

What is really wrong IMO is when church institutions claim to be perfect, infallible etc. That's where control starts and that's where religion can be v. damaging.

But I would add - the fact it can be damaging isn't the whole story. Christianity can be very healing too and my overwhelming experience of christianity is one of healiing, love and acceptance.

[missymoosal]

Why does a 'God' as such have to be involved in the equation?
Everything you have described is possible without the label of religion attached to it.
You sound like a nice person and of course there are genuine people of faith who try to live within a framework of belief that includes many positive atributes.
To a certain extent I am not disturbed by what you describe although I have encountered a certain level of smug superiority amongst the god squad uber mothers at school so proud of themselves and their 'good works'which leaves me slightly nauseous at times.
On another level I worry that the willingness to accept and forgive is open to abuse and there is a certain naivety involved in always trying to see the best in people - nice in theory - but it's not the real world.

[texasrose]

There'a very fine line between accepting / forgiving, and rejecting what is downright bad. For example I would reject outright the prevalance of the religious right in the USA. I might smile and chat to individuals among them, and recognise them as fellow christians, but I would not 'forgive' or 'accept' any of the practices they do in the name of christianity.

I've just said on the Dawkins thread that my faith makes me even more critical of the churches, because I am part of it and as a passionate christian I hate anything in it which is wrong. (sorry, bad english!)

So on to the question of why I believe...two main reasons really. Please don't think I'm smug or superior at all when I say this, I just want to give an answer why I do believe in the first place.

Firstly, historical. There is a wealth of information and evidence that Jesus existed, and tht what is recorded in the Bible is close to what He said and did. I studied New TEstament Greek at university so spent 3 yr going into the history of it. There's also a fair bit of evidence that the resurection really happened, and that is at the centre of christianity. THere'a book called 'who moved the stone?' which is an interesting starting point in thinking about why the resurrection is so important and the implications of if it is or is not true (sorry, appalling English!)

Secondly, my life. It's not all been easy by a long shot but so many times I believe that God has spoken to me, healed me, done things in me that I simply could never have done on my own. THat might sound a bit loony i know and I'm certainly not claiming to have a hotline to heaven that solves all my problems instantly, no way. But I've built up a lot of experiential evidence of God. Far too many stories to tell you now so I'll just tell you one...(and then I must go to bed! Sorry!)

At church, a while ago, we were singing and as I sang an image came int my mind of a girl doing a handstand against a wall. I tried to dismiss it bnut it woldn'tgo away. So eventually I decided to focus on the image and see if tere was anything to learn from it. As I focused I saw that above where the girl was doing her handstand were hand / foot holds, to climb up. All of a sudden i felt that this girl was weary nad fed up, that she was upside down, wanted to get on with her life nad just walk away. But that by doing so many handstands she was strengthening her body so that she cuold climb up higher to te next level of her life.
So I told the rest of the group I was with about this, and afterwards a young woman who was visiting the area came up to me and told me that she suffered from ME and that she was feelingf in despair and feeling that God didn't care, wasn't there for her. She said she couldn't read or do ny of the normal things in her life because of the ME and thatshe was deeply weary and fed u of it. The one thing she did was every morning she did a handstand against the wall to test if she had the energy for that day.
So we prayed together and she had a real sense that God was there and did understand her pain, and did care.

Another quick one - someone I know had a similar experience but the image that came into his mind was the Greek word for 'poo' - not v. uplifting! but he was praying with a group of people and eventually he told them that his word was in his mind and he felt that God was trying to say something through it (!) and one woman startd crying. SHewas married to a Greek bloke and he beat her up and always called her the exact same word that had come into my friend's mind. Again they prayed and she was overwhelmed by GOd's love and that he knew her life and problems.

The reason I'ver chosen to tell you these rather than more exciting stories is that they show me how God speaks and intervenes in our lives, v. personally, and the thing he always says is 'yes, I know! I know your struggles, your pain, your thoughts and fears. let me help you.'

You may think this is all a load of nonsense and I respect that totally, and I'm glad that we live in times when we can debate and disagree without fear of being burnt at the stake. You may think it's mind over matter or that I'm gifted psychically (I don't think that!) But there are so many times when I've praed, and things have happened that go way beyond the normal course of events.

Sorry to pos and run, but I must go to bed! I'm knackered. POst your reply and I'll come back tomorrow!

Hope your MIL is okay. FWIW I'll say one for her when I get to bed

[missymoosal]

I got sidetracked by secret policemans ball whilst waiting for this lengthy missive!
Need time to digest it all properly will post again tomorrow
Sleep Well

[geekgrrl]

I'm a humanist and thus an atheist - I also feel slightly envious of people who believe in something - must be nice!
I really can't though, it'd be like trying to believe in the tooth fairy or something.

[Hallgerda]

I'm an atheist, not a humanist. I don't worry about the fact it's a negative definition. If I weren't surrounded by believers in gods, I wouldn't bother giving a name to the view that there aren't any.

TexasRose, I was interested in your view that all non-believers have consciously rejected something, usually with considerable bitterness. Assuming your name is indicative of location, I think there's a cultural difference across the Atlantic. I've written "Atheist" in the religion slot on an official form while working in Nashville and experienced the reaction - lots of tracts in my pigeonhole and lengthy chats with a very concerned secretary. And I knew an originally Jewish non-believer married to an originally Catholic non-believer who felt a need to bring up their children as Unitarians in order that they had a church to belong to. Here in the UK, hardly anyone bats an eyelid at us any more.

[LadyMacbeth]

I was brought up a Catholic and made to do the full works - mass every Sunday, confession once a month (from the age of seven!!), communion, confirmation etc. My mum is from a long line of ardent Catholics - her family is Irish with a fair dollop of Spanish thrown in - and all her side of the family are still devout practicing Catholics.

Except - there are a few of us who have 'broken away' from Catholicism entirely. I turned completely against Christianity when I was in my teens, a total knee-herk reaction to all the heavy handed guilt-laden doctrines I was taught.

For several years, throughout teens and twenties I had no concrete beliefs; I liked to think there was something there but 'hated' all ideas of God and organised religion. I described myself as atheist but I suppose looking back I was more agnostic.

I know it sounds like a cliche but after having dd1 I really started to become curious about God. I did an Alpha course and started to attend church again, this time a very dynamic Christian church where I met some really welcoming people. I attended a Mum's Group where I can honestly say I met some of the kindest, most genuine, selfless and strong women ever!

I have since moved away and my church attendance has dropped almost completely but I do still feel that I have a very strong connection with God again and I pray regularly. I'm not a massive fan of organised religion but I can see it is highly important if faiths and religions are going to survive into the future.

So in answer to your question... no I'm not atheist!

[chippa]

I am strongly anti religion- It's the way I was brought up! I like to believe in the fundamental good of human kind though. We gave our son a Humanist naming ceremony as I wanted to celebrate his birth and don't see why all ceremonies have to involve references to god.

[missymoosal]

Texasrose
Have ruminated on yesterdays post and am no nearer being convinced that what you describe is anything to do with god.
You are obviously a sensitive and caring person who is attuned to people with vulnerabilities.
All of what you describe can be mimicked look at Daren Brown for instance who has performed some quite frankly almost psychic stunts with people. He picks up on their body language and other signals and can interpret them fairly accurately with powerful results.
In one clip I recall him convincing people with no belief in God to suddenly become convinced of a new belief in God in a matter of minutes.
I have been dragged along to charasmatic evenings by my mother when people get overexcited and begin 'speaking in tongues' as the holy spirit descends on them.
A form of hysteria and very entertaining on one level but disturbing on another.
If this person you were with found some sort of comfort in your vision all well and good. As I said before you appear to have genuine intentions and I will not criticize you in your desire to try and help her.
BUT vulnerable people are often drawn to religious groups and again not everyone will be like you.
Vulnerable, dissatisfied men and women are the perfect tool for manipulation and abuse.
I know you speak as a Christian but what are your views about other faiths as my concerns encompass all of them?

[texasrose]

Hallgerda, hi!

Yes, I can see how there is a big cultural difference between the way atheism is viewed in the US and UK. The USA is still v. much a 'christian' nation whereas I don't think that is the case so much in the UK.

However, despite my nmae I am not Texan and live in the UK! (I do have generational links with Texas tho and am v. into family trees and all that). (altho I might change my MN name as I'm starting to think it sounds a bit porn-starry!!! )

Anyway! I grew up in the UK and maybe it's just where I lived as a child/teen but there was a sense in which all my friends at secondary school who became atheists had reated aganist something, even tho it was not a church school. (Rather than it being a positive decision, IYKWIM - more 'i can't believe in God because xyz...' than 'I do believe in xyz because...'). Does that make sense? So the atheists I'm used to define their beliefs by what they reject, not what they accept.

Maybe it's an age thing. I'm 32 and I'm aware that kids growing up nowadays do not have the same framework of awareness of religion thatkids had when I grew up. Not that I was brought up in a christian family, I hasten to add - I mentioned below that my parents were totally freaked when i became a full-on annoying convert!

[texasrose]

Missymoosal, I can see why I could come across as someone sensitive to vulnerable people (with no particular reference to God).

But I'm not at all psychic and the details which are sometimes in these visions are things I could never know myself.

It's a thorny area and v. open to abuse as you say. Charismatic experiences must be viewed rationally IMO; that's not to say it's all rubbish, but (again IMO) a fair amount of it is. THat's why I think it's so important to have the Bible to use as your bedrock of faith to test everything against. For my part, if I see / hear anything that is anti-biblical I won't have any of it.

Other religions...I believe there are bits of truth in all religions. I beileve it's a basic human need, to believe and connect to something greater than ourselves.

C. S. Lewis said the very fact that we have stomachs and digestive systems proves that food must exist in some form. Otherwise evolution / creation has gone badly wrong. Simi lar with religion - the v. fact that people need to reach out to a higher being prove that one such must exist.

PS meant to say last night - you sound like a nice person too - v. tolerant of ohters' beliefs!