Any other atheists around?

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

Is there a group for us atheists to discuss ideas of faith, morality, life, the universe and everything (42!)?
Note: I would not want this to become about dissing people of faith and would truly welcome discussion with anyone. This isn't about ridiculing anyone. I would be particularly interested in sharing ideas and discussing the social, anthropological, philosophical, political and psychological aspects of religion from an atheist point of view. Anyone else? I can provide and and .

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

MLL, only from the commonly shown idea that atheism is a monolith. From the concept that it simply means not believing in a deity or a deities, then it could fit easily.

[msmiggins]

How does witchcraft hurt people in Nigeria Hettie? From what I see it's the christians and witchhunters who do the damage there. Not the supposed witches.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Children are accused of witchcraft in Nigeria, and it doesn't end well. There's also a form of witchcraft which involves child sacrifice. Remember Adam?

[MostlyLovingLurchers]

Yes, i realise that Spork. I absolutely think you can be an atheist but believe in all manner of other stuff. I picked on the importance of personal experience in Buddhism as it is often a criticism of those with beliefs that they base them on personal experience that cannot be proven and are therefore not rational. That of course does not mean that you can't be an atheist.

[msmiggins]

I agree ML. Athiests are not a cohesive group, there is a large diversity of personal views.

[HettiePetal]

I phrased that badly.

Believing in witchcraft is harmful - Nigeria being a very prime example. Children wouldn't be being shunned & tortured if people didn't believe in the fact of witchcraft (and yes, often it's linked to fundamental Christianity, but not always).

Whether witchcraft itself is harmful, well it depends on what & how you practice. I'm pretty sure there are examples from all over the world of people who have not survived an encounter with witchcraft.

But it's harmful in the way that homeopathy is. Not because spooky water is anything other than a harmless, inert substance - but the belief that it can do something is frequently harmful.

[msmiggins]

So the victims are to blame Hettie?

OLKN be careful with is info regarding witchcraft and accusations of ritual killings. The situation is horrific with a lot of hysteria whipped up by the evangelical church. Much of the "evidence" is scant at best.

Very few of us witches eat babies.

[garlicbutter]

Haven't read this yet, but want it on my active list :)

Dyed-in-the-wool atheist here, with some adopted buddhism-like precepts, some of which sound like woo to woo believers - but aren't!

It's proving strangely hard to specify my (dis)belief ... I do not accept that any non-human force acts intelligently on our lives.

[HettiePetal]

So the victims are to blame Hettie?

I think the people promoting the idea that witchcraft is an actual, real thing are to blame.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Sorry, msmiggins, I didn't mean to imply that your variety of witchcraft is like what goes on in Nigeria. I've heard of white witches, hedgewitches etc and the belief that anything you "send out" comes back to you threefold, so no point in doing anything bad. But harm is being caused elsewhere, by witches and by their hunters. Horrific, as you say.

[msmiggins]

The blame lies squarely at the feet of the church. I thought you as an athiest would accept that. Whether you believe witchcraft to be real or not is it worthy of violent and hysterical attacks by the church?

[msmiggins]

Oldladyknowsnothing- in he case of Nigeria the church uses the whole idea of witchcraft to force and terrify people into its fold. It is ruling by terror. The actual incidences of "real " witchcraft in Nigeria are probably a fraction of what the church there claims. It is a useful tool for the hellfire pastors to scare the shit out of people.

[HettiePetal]

Christianity didn't introduce the idea of witchcraft, did it? I know the Bible says "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" but it didn't invent the concept - just ran with it.

If no one on earth believed that witchcraft was an actual, real phenomenon, then no one would be harmed by it - no matter WHO the harmers are & what their motivations.

And no one should believe in it, because it's not real. Although I'm mindful of the fact that we have to be careful about looking at somewhere as culturally different as Africa though our own eyes - but that still is the long and the short of it.

Our beliefs inform our actions. Belief that witchcraft is real informs the actions of people who hurt others because of it.

Any other comments directed to me will have to be addressed tomorrow as I have to log off now.

[HettiePetal]

It is a useful tool for the hellfire pastors to scare the shit out of people

A tool that wouldn't work if people hadn't been told & taught that witchcraft was real.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Fair enough, you are much better informed than I. And of course your point about the church involvement is very true. Hysteria and fear.

[msmiggins]

You raise some interesting points Hettie. I could argue that yes the bible did to a large extent "invent" witchcraft as a way of trying to rid the community of the old pagan ways. Much of the way that many view "witches" is does through christian eyes. The old hag, ugly crone, stirring gizzards in a pot were a deliberate attempt to vilify these old practices, even torturing and burning them at the stake. Even the concept of the white witch is a christian idea, the duality of good and evil has been imposed by the church. The church certainly created Satan and embellished the characters his supposed cohorts. Christianity cannot exist without adversaries
I still find it rather galling that you think the victims are to blame. Even if some of these women in the witchhunting days did believe themselves to be witches- you think it's their own fault they were burned at the stake?
Surely no one deserves such persecution.

[msmiggins]

oldladyknowsnothing- sorry I didn't mean to sound rude- sorry if I came across that way.

[OldLadyKnowsNothing]

Not at all. :) I should have thought a little more deeply before posting; isn't that the purpose of this thread?

[HettiePetal]

Since none of the children who are tortured in Nigeria ARE witches, or even believe that they are (unless they've been brainwashed) how on earth am I blaming the victims?

[msmiggins]

Yes of course.I have come to see that athiets are a very wide ranging bunch of people- probably far more than any christian group, it;s the lack of agreed belive with unites ( of otherwise) I have a neighbour at the bottom of he road who is a UFOligist. He is an athiest, thinks humans were brought to earth by an alien race and spends evenings in his garden trying to contact distant planets. Some people may see him and I in the same light- but he has as much right to call himself an athiest as anyone.

[msmiggins]

Hettie you seem to be suggesting that a belief in witchcraft is responsible for violent crimes.

"If no one on earth believed that witchcraft was an actual, real phenomenon, then no one would be harmed by it".

[GuybrushThreepwoodMP]

I'm just catching up.
I think the idea of just how you define yourself is a very interesting one which has come up on this thread. I (naïvely) have been confusing atheism and scepticism simply because I happen to be both. It's fascinating how different people can be and yet still consider themselves atheists and in that sense like many other belief systems- some Muslim women cover their heads, some don't, some Catholics use contraception, some don't.
My views on religiousness have tended to always be very black and white and favour a marxist viewpoint. I try really hard not to express my views that way because it's reductive simply to write beliefs off. Even if I don't believe in something, surely I believe in the power of belief itself? To deny that would be to deny the existence of religion as well as God- and obviously religion exists. Therefore beliefs are valuable, whether I agree with them or not.
Are there any anthropologists in the group, out of interest?

[HettiePetal]

Well, because it is!

It's not the people who think they are witches that are responsible for the torture of children, is it? (In the instance we're talking about).

It's those people who BELIEVE that witchcraft is real and needs to be defended against.

It's the belief that witchcraft exists (it doesn't) and is being used to hurt others (it's not) that drives these people - often their own parents :(

Have a suspicion that most of our conversation has been at cross purposes this afternoon.

Right, off to brave the rush hour. Have a good evening, msmiggins.

[msmiggins]

Your reasoning has a somewhat perverse quality to it Hettie. Enjoy your evening.

[CoteDAzur]

What is a "pagan atheist"?

I thought pagan religions were polytheistic.