Christian-Muslim-Jewish friendship thread

[niminypiminy]

I've had a talk with Crescentmoon about starting a thread where Christians and Muslims can hold out our hands in friendship to one another. I feel like we have so much to offer one another, and I certainly would love to learn more about Islam, and to understand the ways in which my Muslim sisters live out their faith. Would anybody else like to join?

I'm niminypiminy, and I'm a member of the Church of England, and work, and have two children. I realise that I'd don't even know if there is an equivalent in Islam for the different denominations (aside from Sunni and Shia, which I'm not at all confident I correctly understand the difference between). I'm going to be offline for a couple of days, so can't get back to reply, but if anybody would like to use this thread to come together as Christians trying to live out our faith, and to prayerfully and open-heartedly welcome and understand each other...

[niminypiminy]

Stressed, like like like that!

Supposed to be getting ready for a day out so just popping in to say greetings to all and will be back later.

[stressedHEmum]

crescent, if I were you, I would avoid that Ramadan thread like the plague - it's much easier to turn the other cheek when you don't know what's being said. There is a line in the book of Amos in the OT that say Therefore the prudent keep quiet in such times, for the times are evil. I think that is an appropriate verse for a lot of what is said on here.

The Book of James is an odd one in the NT. It's written as a letter, but not to anyone in particular. It's a bit like the Book of Hebrews, in some ways, as we don't really know who wrote it. Both books are a sort of NT wisdom literature, like the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes in the OT.

We kind of think that James was written by James the brother of Jesus, there is some evidence for this in other NT books etc. The theory is that the Book of James is a sort of collection of his teachings made up into a form of letter for distribution to the early churches. So the voice is James the brother of Jesus, but under the influence of the Holy Spirit, guiding him in what to say and write.

This is kind of how we believe the bible was written. 1st Timothy 3:16 says that All scripture is inspired of God some translations say "God-breathed". So, just like the angel told Muhammed what to write or communicate, so the Holy Spirit (the aspect of God that does stuff) led the bible writers. We also believe that the Holy Spirit guided the early Christians and the apostles in their preaching, teaching and faith - that's why the apostles could heal, speak in tongues and the like.

As far as structure goes, the NT has 2 distinct sections.

There are the 4 Gospels and the Book of Acts of the Apostles, which are basically the stories of Jesus when He was here on earth. These are where we find the recorded words of Jesus, the stories of his birth, death and resurrection and stuff like that. The Book of Acts records the acts of the apostles in the aftermath of Jesus's death and the very early growth of the church.

After that there are the various Letters and the Revelation of St. John the Divine. The letters are documents written by the Apostles to the early churches throughout the Roman Empire. It is in these letters that we see the development of Christian belief and theology. A lot of them are written by the apostle Paul, but there are also letters written by Peter, John, James, the brother of Jesus and Jude, the brother of Jesus. The epistles talk a lot about remaining constant in the faith and about how we should live. The contain guidance on marriage, parenting, community responsibility and all sort s of things.

The Revelation is what we call Apocalyptic literature. It deals with John's vision of the End Times and the Day of the Lord, which early Christians expected at any second. Modern Christians kind of expect the Day of the Lord and Christ's 2nd Coming, we work towards it and hope for it, but we don't think that we know when it will happen. we believe that only God knows that.

The OT is divided up into 3 sections - historical, poetical and prophetic.
The historical section starts with Genesis and ends with Esther. It records the history of the world as the Hebrews saw it. it also records the history of God's relationship with his people. The first 5 books (pentateuch) are attributed to Moses and contain all the Laws that governed the lives of the early Israelites. The authorship of the other historical books is traditionally attributed to various prophets of God, but there is a huge amount of scholarship and controversy around this issue, between the bible literalists and more progressive folk. For instance, I know a chap who absolutely believes that the Adam and Eve story happened exactly as it is written in Genesis and that the book of Job is a true story, written by a man named Job about his experiences. Most folk believe that Job is a piece of Wisdom writing and an allegory about the fact that bad things happening to good people and about doubt.

The poetic books are the bible's Wisdom writings. They run from Job through to Song of Songs. They are all about faith and the way to live life and are, generally, attributed to people like David and Solomon.

The there are the 18 prophetic books, divided into 6 major and 12 Minor prophets. These books are named after the people who claim to have written them, in the main. The Minor prophets mostly begin by saying things like - This is the Vision of... sent to him by God..., so that's where they get their names. There is a lot of dispute over the authorship of the major prophets, but again, traditionalist believe that they are named after the person who wrote them.

[stressedHEmum]

Eid Mubarak, crescent. have a blessed and joyful day. Try not to overdo things, though, and get plenty of rest.

i would like to know more about Judaism, as well.

[niminypiminy]

Eid Mubarak! Have a lovely day, Crescent, and any other Muslims reading this!

[Tuo]

Eid Mubarak to crescentmoon and all the other muslims on this thread. I hope you have a lovely day today....

[niminypiminy]

Some lovely and moving pictures here

[ZutAlorsDidier]

Thank you crescentmoon for all your brilliant and thoughtful posts on here.

One thing I find very interesting from what I know about Islam (very little) is that there appears to be very precise and realistic instruction on how to be a good person in the material and financial world - without falling apart yourself. In the NT Jesus often requires you to act unrealistically.

" If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them."

The principle makes sound emotional and spiritual sense - do not return hate to hate, or violence to violence, because then you too become violent and hatey.
But it doesn't help you find your way, as practical advice, in a world where you have a responsibility to look after yourself to some extent. Islam seems to have a lot of practical advice as to how to conduct yourself in worldly affairs without getting stiffed or stiffing anyone else.

This is a problem to me (as a Christian) specifically with respect to business and capitalism. I believe that the way late capitalism is conducting itself is a global disaster of violence and cruelty. but I don't have religious principles that say how one should conduct oneself in business, except in as far as I understand it, to have contempt for worldly affairs, which doesn't help me to give my family a secure life. Then I wonder: should I not be trying to give my family a secure life? IS that a shallow immoral aim? But how can it be wrong to look after my children?



thoughts on any of this would be very welcome

I mean anything a bit deeper than "well we just muddle through" (which of course we all do)

[fubbsy]

Hi Didier

I'm Jewish and within Judaism there is a whole strand of thought relating to what they call 'Jewish business ethics'. They talk about how Jewish law applies in contemporary business situations and discuss ethical dilemmas that people come come across.

From the Jewish perspective there is nothing wrong with making money per se or wiht being involved in 'worldly affairs', but we are supposed to strive to behave ethically and in accordance with Jewish law.

[ZutAlorsDidier]

Hi Fubsy, hi Crescentmoon.

I think this is actually one of the most difficult things about being a Christian. Enough is never enough. It is easy to feel that to follow to the letter the Christian code would effectively mean your bodily and social annihilation. This is what martyrs have done, and they are held up as examples. but it is necessary? Is that the only way to live? Apparently not, we have various churches which have in various different ways made their peace with the temporal world and the hustle you need to have to survive in it. But I don't get it. I don't get how that peace is made.
I mean I suppose the Christian way isn't a code in the same way. It is an emotional tone rather than an index of instructions for every eventuality.

The way in which I was brought up Christian has a lot to do with my low self-esteem and this is a paradox given that the message of the gospel is the preciousness of us all. Our unique value to God no matter how low our apparent value in the world. the drumming it in to me that I am sinful and that I can never ever have a reason to put myself first have resulted in a lot of difficulty. More self loathing than a mature humility. I am not sure what the answer is. Or even, strictly speaking, the question.

I had a meeting the other day in which a culturally Jewish colleague said that she believed we were "morally justified" in getting out of a contract we already knew we could legally get out of, because the other party had actively and knowingly let us down. It was jarring to hear the word "morally" at work and interesting to me that this is how she lives and works. She is very senior and can often call the shots but I have often felt forced into an unethical corner at work and I wonder how she has managed her life when it comes up that she is pretty sure that she won't make a good impression if she were to say to her bosses "We could not pay this, but morally I think we have to".

[ZutAlorsDidier]

Oddly - I have just realised - this has something to do with the emotionally stabilising effect that having children has had on me (although that has also had destablilising effects, but they are different). Feeling that I have a moral imperative to look after myself, that I am not expendable, has given me a much firmer foundation and has chipped away at the bedrock of guilt. At the same time, this security has made me a nicer person - I am not proud of this, but I was once, for instance, much more eager to hear bitchy gossip, whereas now I am far more likely to change the subject. I think I "needed" to feel that I was not the only one excluded or on a bad social footing - not the only person de trop, surplus to requirements, awkward or unliked - through an illogical and very unlikeable paradox, hearing others being run down made me feel less awful. Now I think I have no need to hear it, I just want everyone to be ok, and I think it is because I don't feel I am struggling on the fringes of having a right to exist
Morally I cannot justify my existence or the material benefits I enjoy at the expense of others (for so they are in this corner of the world) but somehow emotionally it bothers me less

[peacefuloptimist]

Hi ZutAlors

Your posts resonated with me as I have been thinking about this tension between believing in God and living a materialistic lifestyle. Is it a contradiction? Is it better to be an ascetic rather then a person who lives an extravagant lifestyle? You will find both extremes in the practice of the Muslim community where you have some people who totally renounce the world, choosing to live an austere life and instead dedicate their every moment to worshipping and serving God and those who dive headfirst and enjoy every worldly pleasure there is with abandon.

However, one of the beautiful things about Islam in my opinion is that it is a religion which strives to achieve balance. In the Quran it describes the believers as those who take the 'Middle' path (i.e. have a balanced approach to things) and I think this is especially seen with respect to this issue of how to live a moral life and yet still deal with the realities of having to live in a world where you need money to survive.

There are too insightful and thought provoking hadiths that illustrate the balance that Islam tries to achieve with regards to how a believer should be in respect to the world. The first is the famous one (to Muslims anyway!):

?Be in the world as if you were a stranger or a traveller'

I.e. Do not be too attached to the world and take provisions from this world in the same way that a traveller would take enough provisions for their journey. The emphasis is on taking what you need to successfully complete your journey but not overburdening yourself.

The Quran does encourage Muslims to not become obsessed with worldly acquisitions. Allah says in Chapter 6, Verse 32:

"And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion but the home of Hereafter is best for those who are righteous. Will you not then reason?"

"Wealth and children are [but] adornment of the worldly life. But the enduring good deeds are better for you with your Lord and better for [one's] hope.? (Chapter 18: verse 46)

Children at that time were regarded in a similar way to wealth i.e. if you had a lot of children you were seen as being in a better position then someone who had fewer children.

So from the above verses in the Quran you would presume that Islam encourages asceticism. However the second hadith which is less well known by Muslims turns that on its head.

'A man passed by the Prophet (peace be upon him) on the way to the market and on seeing this person?s strength and his energetic nature the companions of the Prophet said, "Oh Messenger of God, what if this person was in the path of God". The Prophet replied that "If he left for work so that he can support his small children then he is in the path of God. If he left for work to benefit himself so that he can become self-sufficient then he is in the path of God, if he left to support his old parents then he is in the path of God, if he left out of show and pride he is in the path of the devil".' (Tabarani)

I absolutely love the message of this hadith. The companions of the Prophet (PBUH) disapproved of the man for being so eager to earn wealth/livelihood and thought he should instead spend his time working in the path of God. But the Prophet Muhammed PBUH establishes a principle here that everything we do in this life, if it is guided by revelation and is done with a good intention, becomes a form of worship even though it is a worldly matter. So working hard to provide for your family and to support yourself is working in the path of God. In this way anyone who goes out to earn their livelihood for the purpose of providing for themselves and their families rather then to acquire wealth for wealth's sake is doing a good action that will be rewarded by God.

Another hadith backs this idea up.

The Prophet (PBUH) said: ?The most superior dinar which a man spends is the dinar which he spends on his family".

So Islam encourages Muslims to work hard to support themselves and their families but provides guidelines, which I'm sure others can elaborate on, that give a framework on how to do that in a moral way e.g.

"Oh you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent." (Holy Quran, Chapter 4, verse 29)

So we need to find a happy medium between the two extremes i.e. completely austere life and a completely extravagant self-indulgent one. So you can be wealthy and be pious as well. There was a famous Muslim scholar who is the founder of one of the legal schools of thought who was actually quite a wealthy man and lived a comfortable wealthy lifestyle. He was once asked whether you could be rich and be an ascetic at the same time and he replied yes as long as the increase or decrease of your wealth does not please or upset you (massively paraphrased). He also taught that if God blesses you with wealth you should show it rather then pretending you are less well off then you are. The way that many have interpreted this is that it is fine for you to live within your means (i.e. if you can afford an expensive house or car then its fine for you to get it and is not considered extravagant) as long as you don't spend beyond your means.

For Muslims the act of giving charity is also seen as a purification of ones wealth which is something I think Crescent mentioned earlier. The word for charity (zakah) actually means purification.

[ZutAlorsDidier]

"in both types of communities it is to encourage balance so that they are not extreme in going after the hereafter at the expense of themselves and their dependents in the worldly life, or becoming preoccupied with the piling up of wealth and forgetting to put anything forward for the Day of Judgement. i wonder if christian or jewish preachers have the same approach to social issues like that?"

That is really interesting, crescentmoon.
I am sure different Christian priests do take different tacks in this way but I don't know how / if it is formalised.

It touches on something similar I have often mused upon: the teaching of humility can be damaging to those who have too little self respect already.

[twistyfeet]

I'd forgotten about this thread! Eid mubarak for all the muslims. I've really enjoyed reading the posts. We're getting ready for the High Holy Days of the Jewish Calender (in september so co-inciding with back to school ).

[ZutAlorsDidier]

I was thinking about the relative disinclination I have now to engage in bitchy gossip and St Patrick's Breastplate occurred to me, in particular the lines

"Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of everyone who speaks of me,"

I can't really be self-important enough to take sole responsibility for how the world is that my children live in but there is a very vague and loose sense in my head that by not promoting gossip I do not promote a toxic society... I would love it if my children lived in a world where this was true of the people who spoke of them, thought of them, and they were the same

Perhaps I am just like St Augustine and have had enough entertaining gossip to last me a lifetime! I came to this realisation late

[twistyfeet]

They start with Rosh HaShanah, our New Year. The book of judgement (if your orthodox, which I'm not, you take this sort of literally) opens and G-d judges humanity , so jews begin prayers of repentance and ask for forgiveness. We celebrate with a special meal (when dont we?!) with apples dipped in honey and sweet foods to signify the sweetness of the new year and the harvest are eaten. Many people also do a ceremoney called Taschlich where breadcrumbs are thrown into a river to represent throwing off of sins and the shofar (rams horn) is blown during the service.
10 days later is the most important day of Yom Kippur (a 25 hour fast day) when G-d's decision is meant to be final so many jews spend the intervening days asking forgiveness to those they have wronged during the year. This is called Teshuvah. Yom Kippur is the holiest day in the jewish calender and probably the only day the synagogue is full
Before Yom Kippur ends it is traditional to start thinking about Sukkot (the feast of booths) which starts 5 days later and lasts 7 days. Sukkot commemorates the years that the Jews spent in the desert on their way to the Promised Land, and celebrates the way in which God protected them under difficult desert conditions. The word sukkot is the plural of the Hebrew word sukkah, meaning booth. Jews are commanded to "dwell" in booths during the holiday. This generally means meals, but some sleep in the sukkah as well, particularly in Israel where it isnt rainy. There are specific rules for constructing a sukkah. I dont usually make one as my garden is teeny but go round and eat in friend's sukkahs and the shul holds a communal meal in a sukkah.
the day after Sukkot is Simchat Torah which marks the end of the full cycle of Torah reading (a portion of the Torah is read every week in the synagogue over a solar year and then restarted). Its a bit dancy as this is a time of joy.

September is a little full!

As for the swaying during prayer. In yiddish its called 'shuckling'. I cant recall the hebrew term but its just like a meditative aid to prayer which I guess is the same in Islam. I read a very funny article the other day about types of shuckle which maybe you need to be jewish to find funny but I'll share it if people want .