Come talk to me about Hitchens?

[ICBINEG]

How did I not know about Hitchens?

How do I not stay up all night trawling youtube....

Seriously..I have been a kinda quiet atheist...don't poke me with your religion and I won't poke you with how stupid it all sounds to me.

I feel like someone stuck a fire cracker up my back side.

What if there is a moral imperative that atheists get out there and attempt to rid the world of the evil that is religion?

I am all confused now.

[EllieArroway]

.....who in addition maintains a personal website saying how stupid religious people are

Well, he won't get an argument from me on that one.

[ICBINEG]

Well I think as long as it says correlation then that is fair...although I doubt causality in the extreme.

In fact I suspect it goes the other way...more enlightened fairer less fearful societies will have more atheists because less people feel the need to conform.

[ICBINEG]

but yeah if you accuse someone of making up data when they can show you the published data, then you deffo owe an apology.

[ICBINEG]

athiests have "lower levels of prejudice, ethnocentrism, racism,
and homophobia, greater support for women?s equality, child-rearing that promotes independent thinking and an absence of corporal punishment, etc"

well homophobia is certainly a banker at least....I find it extremely easy to agree with that one...

[EllieArroway]

And poorer nations tend to be more religious too - and they generally have a higher crime rate. So, it's not a simple thing.

But really - this is not on.

You accused me of making it all up....a bare faced liar, in other words. I have produced two studies that back up what I say. Come up with whatever objections you like, but it's clear that I got my information from somewhere so I am NOT A LIAR making stuff up.

You then accused me of claiming that all crime was caused by religious people. I didn't say anything of the sort - or even implied it. I went out of my way to say that NOT all high crime could be put down to levels of religion, the situation is way more complex than that, but you deliberately misread me and called me a fucking bigot.

Enough. How dare you and the likes of Sielglinde continually attack me and use that awful word when all I'm doing is debating an issue.

You have the almighty bloody cheek to demand respect but flagrantly offer absolutely none in return.

Absolutely bloody disgusting.

[Isabeller]

Icbineg the religious group I belong to is very much opposed to violence so perhaps passes your litmus test. It is a relatively small group and I have a problem with the concept of a major religion when you are looking closely at the evils done with a religious excuse. I realise this whole area is very problematic and I think you pose very important questions.

I'm not sure whether your goal is to convince people of faith that they are fundamentally mistaken or whether you want to advocate non-tolerance of religious faith and practice.

I'm struggling with finding anything I say on this thread is understood as a vast and ridiculous generalisation so perhaps I should be concentrating more on trying to properly understand other poster's points of view. On the other hand perhaps you would prefer not to hear from someone in my position.

[ICBINEG]

isabella it's okay - we can chat and ignore the yelling.

My position does not currently involve anything other than being quietly atheist at the moment. Certainly I have never tried to argue anyone out of their faith, nor prevented anyone from practising their faith.

I am working my way up from just ignoring the whole issue to thinking that it isn't okay for there to be mandatory god worship in schools....and that I should actually actively campaign against this.

In trying to make that leap I am exploring whether the wrongs perpetrated by organised religion are bad enough that I should get off my ass and attempt to remove their influence from my children's education. In the area I live in their are religious schools both C of E and catholic and any other school is C of E by default.

So I am primarily interested in the morality and pros and cons of removing C of E and catholic influence over children's education.

[Isabeller]

Religion in school is certainly an incredibly important and tough subject. If you feel strongly about this I hope you will really look into it and act on your conclusions.

Are your children being forced into being involved with worship of some kind? I don't know if it was you but I saw a thread recently about someone who was rightly unhappy that in order to apply to their school of choice they would have to manufacture a pretend faith. I don't see how any religious school could in conscience want to be party to that.

[YoniMaroney]

"Here's another one

www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/Zuckerman_on_Atheism.pdf

There's been quite a few. That I can produce any proves that I haven't just made it up. "

???

You said, and I will quote again :

"The most atheistic (or non-religious would be a fairer way to put it) on Earth are those with the lowest crime levels - Sweden, Japan etc. Those with the highest number of religious people, like America, have the highest."

This is and was bollocks, and you made it up, and yet you are still getting all indignant trying to defend yourself with links to random long essays that don't actually support your claim, rather than just admit that you were wrong.

[ICBINEG]

isabella all schools in the UK have to do an 'act of worship' every day.

I believe you can get your kid out of that if you want to but that isn't really a solution in my opinion. The majority of people in the UK are not C of E so why have a C of E act of worship every day?

My own child is too young but it is time to think about the issue before it happens.

[ICBINEG]

hmm basically I don't want my female child's education to permeated by a religious organisation that cannot manage to treat women as equals.

[ICBINEG]

ellie don't bother responding to them. Anyone that calls you a bigot for quoting conclusions from peer reviewed literature isn't worth talking to.

although this would include a lot of FFers on MN that don't like the look of the data correlating SIDS and FFing.....

[sieglinde]

Sorry not to have responded sooner, but I really have a busy day today. I'll try tomorrow - certainly didn't intend to blank anyone, ICBINEG, and apologies if it seemed like that, nor to call people bigoted simply for quoting peer-reviewed journals - perish the thought, since I publish in them too. It's just that it's 0th week here...

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

On the schools front I'd like to share an anecdote which happened to me in year 8 (so we're talking mid nineties).

We had a representative from Amnesty International come in to school and we spent a class with them. They told us 12 year old about some Greek guy who had rowing on a river and somehow lost his oars or something (can't remember exactly what it was), anyway, he inadvertently floated into Albania and got picked up by Albanian police as a trespasser and thrown into jail. Part of the class was then to write a letter to the Albanian government to release this innocent man from jail. Our parents also had to supply money for a stamp to send the letter.

All well and good I suppose, and I'm sure Amnesty International do lots of good work. But, how were we supposed to know, at age 12,that this guy wasn't actually infiltrating Albania as a spy or something and been fairly arrested? And they used school children for a very abstract cause. As it happened, I was quite switched on and refused to write the letter, but everyone else in my class just went along with it.

Since that day, I've hated Amnesty International. Although that's irrelevant to my point.

What I am trying to say though is that things like daily worship, whilst perhaps not compulsory and have opt out clauses, are still things that the majority of children will just go along with because they don't know any better, at a young age, to challenge what they're doing. And this is the way in which children just end up accepting that there's a god, etc. because it's just not even taught, it's referred to in activities the children do as a matter of fact.

[EllieArroway]

This is and was bollocks, and you made it up, and yet you are still getting all indignant trying to defend yourself with links to random long essays that don't actually support your claim, rather than just admit that you were wrong

I said that there is a correlation there, which there is - I didn't imply causation. That you are not intelligent enough to understand the fairly massive distinction is your problem - don't make it mine.

Thank you for your lovely PM, Isabeller. I'm not upset. People like that are shamefully common on MN and I'm used to it. Doesn't mean it shouldn't go unchallenged, though.

She wasn't talking about you, Sieglinde. No - you call people bigots for daring to point out the horrors of the Catholic Church. Can't imagine what peer-reviewed journal you think you publish in. You know the letters page of Take A Break doesn't count, right?

[ICBINEG]

ohh I don't know...the letters page of Take a break may well be peer reviewed.....it all depends on your definition of peer.

I'm actually hiding on here due to someone who I am willing to bet serious money on not having a science A level let alone degree telling me I am to stupid to understand quantum mechanics....I mean I have a degree in physics from Oxbridge and teach the topic at a Russel group Uni but on account of my not feeling it can be used to throw out the whole of scientific method I am apparently to dumb to get it....

MN is quite the meat grinder sometimes....

[Isabeller]

Exhausted wave - day got hijacked by care crisis - will return with more sensible contribution tomorrow. School thing v important also impressed by quantum mechanics- would love to understand this - just had fantasy of explanation of QM in style of Take a Break (Imagine your violent ex partner passes you at the speed of light in a police car, ...). Sorry really am exhausted

[EllieArroway]

Icbineg That it is! Have you been keeping up with the hilarious ramblings on the YEC thread?

I'd also like to hear about QM - alert me if there's ever a thread where you're talking about it.

Why the hell don't we have a Science section on MN? There's loads of yer actual scientist types amongst MNers that I'd love to be able to talk to without the idiotic objections of certain religious types getting in the way.

[ICBINEG]

YEC? I have been QMing on the toddler past life experiences thread....mildly......as in I haven't gotten out any maths yet :)

[ICBINEG]

oh it must mean young earth creationism right?

Ill have a look but tbh I find it really depressing how utterly scientifically illiterate people are on here....

[EllieArroway]

Here. Could really use a physicist on there. Good for a laugh if nothing else - we have the proven existence of fire breathing dragons and everything!

[EllieArroway]

I understand this might be a 'ickle' bit difficult for you to understand ICBINEG

Oh boy.......! I see what you mean! Not unlike, "I suppose it's too much to expect you to have read any Marx". No dear, it's not given that I had Marx coming out of my ears when I was studying for my BA in Modern History

Patronising twazzocks.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

also impressed by quantum mechanics- would love to understand this

Anyone who understands quantum mechanics doesn't understand quantum mechanics

[Isabeller]

Please do a QM thread ICBINEG

[NicholasTeakozy]

To get back to the OP, if the current crop of 'celebrity atheists' such as Dawkins, Harris etc are a bit too erm, light and fluffy, why not try . Definitely NSFW, and DO NOT watch if easily offended as she doesn't take any prisoners. :o