Come talk to me about Hitchens?

[ICBINEG]

How did I not know about Hitchens?

How do I not stay up all night trawling youtube....

Seriously..I have been a kinda quiet atheist...don't poke me with your religion and I won't poke you with how stupid it all sounds to me.

I feel like someone stuck a fire cracker up my back side.

What if there is a moral imperative that atheists get out there and attempt to rid the world of the evil that is religion?

I am all confused now.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

If you haven't already seen it, I highly recommend again showing Hitchens at his very finest!

[ICBINEG]

I don't think I feel guilty for not believing in god any more. It was so obviously not in me once I looked properly that I, like Fry find that I can't really hate myself for being who I am. I also feel like if there is a god then he must have made me without the spark of faith...possibly for a reason. Pretending to have it certainly doesn't get you anywhere anyway.

I was C of E so I don't have the whole catholic guilt baggage that my friends have at least.

But yes that is my big deal with it. How do I make sure my DD knows her faith or lack of makes no difference to my valuing her as a person? And what duty do I have to make sure society doesn't ever make her feel shit for going one way or the other....(in current climate of church influenced school that would be more of a worry if she takes after me than if she doesn't.)

Will check the video once DD is in bed :)

[CheerfulYank]

I remember Sam Harris getting a kicking from both sides for this, which I found irritating. He was just being honest!

Icbineg if I'm to be completely forthright I have to say that I hope my son finds faith of some kind, because it has given me such comfort over the years, and I enjoy the rituals of religion like christenings, etc. Also (and I can only speak for myself of course) I feel that my faith has made me a better person.

But I'm sure he will be a good person regardless, and he could find comfort elsewhere. I'd be okay with it. I wasn't raised to be a religious person, yet I am, and my parents gave me total freedom to become that. I owe DS (and unborn DD :)) the same.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

Icbineg if I'm to be completely forthright I have to say that I hope my son finds faith of some kind, because it has given me such comfort over the years, and I enjoy the rituals of religion like christenings, etc. Also (and I can only speak for myself of course) I feel that my faith has made me a better person.

I have to say, I think it's great when people find comfort in faith, if what you believe helps you be content in life then there's nothing wrong with that in itself.

Having said that, in stark contrast I find comfort in a world without deities and personally find religious rituals quite boring, annoying and preachy. Really not my cup of tea at all.

[noblegiraffe]

I don't agree with his politics, but he earned my utmost respect when he decided to actually be waterboarded, I assume to better inform his view on whether it constitutes torture.

www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

Completely agree noble, you can't accuse him of not doing everything he could to understand what he was arguing against.

[CheerfulYank]

Yes, I liked him for that too. And many other things.

I get that Pedro. That's what I meant when I said he could find comfort elsewhere. :)

[MasterOfTheYoniverse]

Pedro thanks for clearing the ambiguity that said i totally identify with your comments 19:44:26

I do envy the sense of community found in Congregations though.
Having lived pretty much all my life as an expat, i have often struggled with loneliness and i find it very difficult to pass on knowledge about religion to my children.
On that point OP, i feel exactly the same as you. I prefer my children to have very minute doses of exposure to religion And dont that it to define them until they make their own choice.

Cherful,lovely conclusion, i hope our children can say the same of us one day.

[ICBINEG]

Yes, I think even as a teen I knew I was losing a ready built accepting community any where I went...but if you don't fit you don't.

[CheerfulYank]

It would have been his birthday today. Or, is his birthday I suppose.

I'm sure it's a hard day for his family. I hope they're doing as well as possible.

[NicholasTeakozy]

Thank you CY for pointing me in the direction of this thread. To quote Mike Patton, "You are an angel heading for the land of sunshine, and fortune is smiling upon you".

I think Christopher Hitchens was an important figure whether you're a 'silly theist' (private joke), an agnostic or an atheist. I remember my feeling of disappointment when Hitch publicly agreed with the invasion of Iraq, and his pronouncement that women aren't funny. In other areas, such as religion and freedom of speech he could easily have been speaking for me. Of course Hitch would've explained that a lot better than I ever could because, like Marvin, he had a brain the size of a planet.

On the subject of children and religion Hitch was of course right when he stated that all children are born atheist, and that they take on the prejudices and superstitions of those around them, including their parents. Both my daughters are atheists. DD2 has always been an atheist, she even regarded Santa Claus with suspicion when she was very young. DD1 became an atheist after five years of theology studies and is a strident anti-theist and much more scornful of religion than her sister. They're both scared of spiders due to them seeing how their mother deals with them.

There is a story, whether it's true or not I don't know, that a day or so before he died he was visited by a priest who begged him to reconsider his atheism, or at least accept Pascal's Wager. Apparently he argued his position so passionately and with such eloquence and elegance that the priest left doubting his own faith.

And of course he left us with Hitchen's Razor. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

In my opinion, out of all the so called New Atheists (I really detest that description) only Daniel Dennett, James Randi and Penn Jillette are fit to lace his drink. Which of course would be Scotch. Or red wine, depending on the time of day.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

I'd add Sam Harris to that list.

[sieglinde]

"Hitch was of course right when he stated that all children are born atheist, and that they take on the prejudices and superstitions of those around them, including their parents."

There's some neurological evidence that people seek out religion from around 10... and btw why do you assume that YOUR children aren't affected by YOUR beliefs, but are 'naturally' atheists? Given that they've learned arachnophobia from you? Given how militant you are?

YRS on the story about Hitchens and the priest - downloading an old bit of John Foxe martyrology.... love the predictable way new atheist is but old presbyter writ large. Who can POSSIBLY be the source of this tale?

Dennett is even shallower than Hitchens. FFS. Why can't you people read some Nietzsche or some Spinoza or some Hume or some Frazer? At least put some welly into it.

[NicholasTeakozy]

There's some neurological evidence that people seek out religion from around 10...

10 what? AM? Years of age? You hardly do your argument any favours there. I mean, you've quoted the babies born atheist bit and not even bothered to counter it. DD1 was a Christian until the age of 16. Five years of studying theology cured her of it.

If a child seeks religion at age ten why do so many theists insist on indoctrinating their children with their own brand of poison and insist that theirs is the only one that counts? Oh, must correct another point. It's their mother who's arachnophobic, not me.

Hitchens was shallow? :o:o:o Given that he is widely acknowledged to be one of the finest orators of his generation, and certainly able to debunk theologisms and wrote and spoke about a wide range of subjects again renders your argument facile and wrong.

I sort of see where you're coming from Pedro, but Harris always comes across (to me at least) as being a bit lacking in humour. Dawkins too. Gervais too often attacks the man not the idea, which is a tactic I don't agree with. Which are all good reasons why the list of those who could conceivably succeed Hitch is so small, though given that Randi is now 84 years old I feel confident that list will be shorter fairly soon. And Dennett is knocking on a bit now too...

[noblegiraffe]

I haven't read any Sam Harris but there seem to be concerns about him and islamophobia that go beyond an atheist argument.

m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus

(sorry, on phone so mobile version).

I've seen Dawkins and Dennett speak, and Dennett was simply dull. I was very disappointed, but could barely stop myself falling asleep. Dawkins, at least, was an engaging speaker.

[sieglinde]

Mr Teakozy,

Being a great orator and being deep are not related. One could even make a case for an inverse correlation. Look at Hitler, Churchill, and JFK.

I shall leave your corrections to one side - you're only making yourself look petty. I made no assumptions about your daughter's position before she began her studies. For my argument, it's immaterial which parent is the arachnophobe.

You write (illustrating that warm and benign tolerance so much to the fore among humanists/atheists) 'many theists insist on indoctrinating their children with their own brand of poison and insist that theirs is the only one that counts?'
I have no idea what this means. I guess/assume you mean that I take my children to mass? I do. But they don't have to go and I never ever compel or threaten them in any way. Just a reminder - the RC church says virtually nothing about helfire nowadays, and nor do I. We know many people of other faiths - Jewish, pagan, Quaker, C of e, Mormon - and none. I have no clue what it would mean to say ours is the only one 'that counts.' It's not what I think, so why would I say it?

[CheerfulYank]

Glad you found it, Nick! :)

I've been accused of brainwashing my son before, and I do find it a bit irritating. I tell him I believe in God and Jesus, and in an afterlife. I do, so anything else would be a lie.

Also, as we are American, there are no RE classes. If parents don't teach their children about religion (whether they are believers or not), it isn't something they have any knowledge of. I think it's hard to relate to people of other cultures if you don't understand what they believe and why, or even people of your own culture if you have no understanding of the religious beginnings of holidays, different phrases, etc.

I haven't had any coffee yet and am stumbling a bit to say what I mean. Plus, I'm trying to get DS ready for mass.

[sieglinde]

Given that psychology no longer believes in brainwashing, it's intriguing that militant atheists aren't quite up to date in their science, cheerfulyank .

If every child in the RC church is 'brainwash'ed and deprived of choice why do we also hear - wrongly - that the RC church is in decline? (In fact it's growing - even in Europe - by 2% last year and by much higher % everywhere else.)

A few of the militants on here ARE ex-Catholics. Why were THEY and they alone able to overcome their conditioning and bound to freedom?

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

Yes Sam Harris goes beyond other atheist writers and speakers to advocate not just a moral crusade but a military style crusade against the Muslim world.

It wouldn't be too difficult to come up with a pretty lengthy list of Muslims who want to bomb the Western world and would actually follow through with it (or already have) so yes, I think Harris has a point.

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

sieglinde you seem to be suggesting that children are born as theists. This is simply not true. If a child grew up in a world where there was no religion at all, it's pretty unlikely they'd ever be religious.

Also, if it were true, why is it that children who turn into religionists almost invariably end up believing in the god of their local/familial culture??

The reason is that they are not born theists, they will tend to believe what their parents believe. You don't have to say "you will believe in this", just saying "I believe in this" is usually enough because that is how children are wired, it's an evolved beneficial trait for children to do and think as their parents do.

[NicholasTeakozy]

Similar to you CY but not exactly the same, my son asked me if I believed in god. He was 5 years old and had got told about it at school. Of course I told him no, I don't. His next question, "why not?" was a little more difficult to answer, bearing in mind his age and the fact he still believed in Santa Claus. :o

Just for you Sieglinde, here's an article from one of the links in the article Noblegiraffe posted showing Hitch being all shallow again. If you call dismantling ideas and decrying Sam Harris' views on Islam and fascism shallow then fair enough, you had a better education than I. Also, bear in mind the language Hitch uses in the article; hardly the words of a shallow human being. Then take into account that it was probably knocked out in an hour in between arguing with friends and drinking.

Considering his prodigious alcohol intake Hitch's work ethic and output were astounding, and the world is a poorer place without the benefit of his wit and wisdom.

[JoTheHot]

It's pretty weak to glibly dismiss intellects of world renown as shallow just because you don't understand agree with their arguments. And tossing in erroneous facts doesn't help either.

"we also hear - wrongly - that the RC church is in decline? (In fact it's growing - even in Europe - by 2% last year and by much higher % everywhere else.)"

No. We hear - rightly - that the church is in decline. According to the vatican www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1203473.htm, who say that numbers in europe are declining, while in the rest of the world the proportion is flat, and the number of weddings and baptisms are declining. I.e. catholics are becoming more lax.

[EllieArroway]

Hitchens was "shallow"? In what universe? Oh right - the universe where anyone with a different viewpoint, no matter how well argued, is automatically "shallow".

Most people of faith hate Hitchens - he's an embarrassment to them. He demolishes their entire system of belief in about three sentences. Rather than actually refute any points he's made, they simply call him names and pretend to laugh at him.

Why were THEY and they alone able to overcome their conditioning and bound to freedom? Honestly? Intelligence, I think. That's what happened in my case.

There's some neurological evidence that people seek out religion from around 10.... Well, perhaps I'm wrong - but children aren't born at age 10, are they? So how this refutes the proposition (actually, the fact) that everyone is born an atheist, I've no idea. What happens around the age of 10 is a new sense of questioning and curiosity about the world - and if you have a parent that you love and trust who takes you to mass every Sunday and makes it clear that they completely believe the nonsense being spouted by the men in long dresses then you are evolutionarily inclined to believe it.

And I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that "brainwashing" (mind control is a better description) has been completely refuted by psychologists. All of scientific ideas are open to debate, always, but the idea that the consensus now is that there's no such thing is barking mad. Not true.

ICINBERG Personally I think that religion has had such a detrimental effect on this planet, and continues to have in many parts of the world, that there is a moral imperative to at least remove it's sense of entitlement to "respect" and privilege. Of course people must be free to believe what they like - but they aren't, and shouldn't be, free to demand that we all tip toe around being respectful of it. That was Hitchen's message, I think, and he was right.

[CheerfulYank]

I think I may have been born a theist.