Should Christians be hated?

[plaingirly]

Random question! I opened my Bible on Matthew 10 and verse 22 says :

And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.

I think there is another verse similar but can't remember it.

So if someone is really a follower of Jesus will people hate them and if people don't hate them are they not strong enough in their faith?

I don't really want to be hated! Also at work we have to get along with people so having them hate us wouldn't be ideal. Unless the verses are more specific or maybe aimed at the disciples.

[sieglinde]

I'm ok with ANY criticism of doctrine or indeed of individual acts - I was doing it myself a minute ago - but not with the kind of blanket all-Catholics-are-evil-idiots claims made above. If you want to duke it out over the theology of the body, fine. I have to begin by saying it's not as central to the view of the RC church from within as it is from without.

I also think that while child sex abuse by the clergy is HORRIBLE and the coverup WORSE, it is a. regrettably common in secular organisations as well, such as the BBC and Manchester Music School and the odd meditation expert recently accused, and those institutions also covered it up and denied it and b. therefore not the result of the church but something that happens with ANYONE who is in a position of trust c. something on which the RC church in England has taken very strong action indeed and more to come, I devoutly hope.

An instance of the kind of thing I object to is the criticism of the new pope before he'd even been invested for his alleged role in the Argentine political system - within less than a week one of the two key witnesses withdrew the allegation, but the press said far less about this than they did about the original claims.

[LizzyDay]

The thing is that the Catholic church:

• wields a lot of power
  
• has a lot of money
  
• claims to set a moral example
  
• tells people how they should live their lives
  

That is why, when its hypocrisy and crimes are exposed, people get angry and can't understand why ANYONE would willingly support it.

[LizzyDay]

Oh yes, and add 'unelected' to that list.

[Viviennemary]

I always understood this was supposed to mean the sufferings of Christians in the early church.

[seeker]

Exactly, lizzy. Yes, other organizations are corrupt. But in general, they do not set themselves up as the moral arbiters for billions of people. We have q right to expect higher standards from a church than from, say a media company.

[HolofernesesHead]

I think Viviennemary is right wrt the Bible verse quoted at the start of the thread; the early Christians were hated, and killed. We Christians in the UK have such incredibly easy lives now, whatever Lord Carey says. Not so all over the world though, sadly.

[sieglinde]

Oh, I don't know, seeker. All of what Lizzy says applies to the BBC.

• wields a lot of power
  
• has a lot of money
  
• claims to set a moral example
  
• tells people how they should live their lives
  
• unelected
  

Tick tick tick! and I was furious about Saville, just as I was/am about clerical abuse.

[seeker]

Since when has one of the main purposes of the BBC been to be a moral arbiter?

And since when has the BBC been in a position to threaten people with eternal damnation if they don't do what it says?

[PedroPonyLikesCrisps]

And since when has the BBC been in a position to threaten people with eternal damnation if they don't do what it says?

Well.... There's always the licence fee.... but not eternal damnation I suppose......

[sieglinde]

I think the old Beeb under Reith did set itself up in very much these terms, seeker.

I don't think the RC church threatens anyone with eternal damnation anymore. I think this is part of your rather old-fashioned view of things, based for all I know on Joyce.

I've been RC for 52 years and have rarely heard anyone even mention hell. This is I think another example of my basic gripe... the straw church you guys make gives little incentive for further change because you lot kinda ignore the changes that have already been made.

[seeker]

Sorry. Eternal damnation was a bit of an exaggeration. Although there are lots of reports of priest using such threats to keep children quiet.

[seeker]

"the straw church you guys make gives little incentive for further change because you lot kinda ignore the changes that have already been made."

So itour fault that the changes don't seem to be happening very fast?

[sieglinde]

seeker, I hear this too. I can only say that these seem to me the older layer of the horrendous cases we see. They make me sick with anger, too.

The threat has only once been made to me, in relation to my mother who was C of E, and the local priest when consulted gave the nun in question a HUGE bollocking. This was in 1972.

I honestly never ever dread hell fire. What I dread is disloyalty to Christ, and to God - HURTING them. Just as one would dread that with any close friend. I mean, if you think, bloody hell, mass again, it's a bit like thinking, bloody hell, grandma again, or bloody hell, she's on about her love life again. It's that kind of bloody hell . Love makes you do what you wouldn't do ordinarily.

Actually the RC church is pretty much the ONLY Christian faith that promises a LIMITED period of purgation (the doctrine of Purgatory). Catholics do talk about this, a lot. The assumption is that the only people who remain there are those who CHOOSE to stay. This for us is the meaning of the doctrine of the redemption. Christ suffered INSTEAD of us. That's actually amazingly hard to live with.

[sieglinde]

So itour fault that the changes don't seem to be happening very fast?

No of COURSE not. Just - do you want to help the RC church change, or to luxuriate in condemning it?

[PedroPonyLikesCrisps]

sieglinde, so what happens if you've upset god when you turn up at the pearly gates? Do you still get in?

[seeker]

"No of COURSE not. Just - do you want to help the RC church change, or to luxuriate in condemning it?"

Neither. It is not my responsibility to "help the RC church change". It is the responsibility of the hierarchy- and maybe the responsibility of the ordinary communicants- if they withdrew support at "pew level" things would happen faster.

And no, I don't "luxuriate" in condemning. I condemn. Because it is wicked, evil and inexcusable. And ongoing.

[LizzyDay]

Actually Sieglinde there probably are a few parallels between the BBC and the RC church. Are you saying that's a good thing?

At least the BBC won't guilt you out if you switch channel by saying that you're disloyal because they died for you. I can see how hard that kind of love must be.

[MandragoraWurzelstock]

my mother appears to take this seriously

she is a catholic and adheres to the rules on everything which basically means upsetting most people, while being really nice about it

So no one hates her but everyone hates what she does with it, she's losing people she loves just because they know she doesn't approve of them.

[sieglinde]

1. Pedro asks.. sieglinde, so what happens if you've upset god when you turn up at the pearly gates? Do you still get in?
   

The short answer is, only God knows. The long answer is that God's mercy is infinite, and yes, if you are sorry he will be merciful, again a bit like a friend you've upset.

But the even longer answer is that I don't try not to upset God because of any anxiety about the next world, but because I love and respect him here and now. I never think about the pearly gates either. (What gates?)

1. seeker asks - 'there probably are a few parallels between the Beeb and the RC church - are you saying that's a good thing?
   

For whom? I'm just saying it's a thing. Are you puzzling over everyone who ponied over their license fee, supporting an organisation that covered up child abuse? I'm betting no. I'm betting that you would see it as disproportionate.

IMHO, the Beeb might actually be significantly less likely to change in any deep way than the RC church. We should have a nice talk about Foucault...

I don't see Christ as 'guilting me out'. It's not about guilt. It's about love and compassion. How can he MAKE me feel guilty? I just feel that way, just as I would if I upset a colleague and thought it was because I'd been thoughtless or insensitive.

1. Mandragora, that must be really hard for you (and maybe for her too). I see this and I see your point, but I also think she may not be typical - at any rate, the Catholics I know aren't like that, and nor was Jesus. The ones I know are genuinely the most loving, tolerant, generous people I know, and the most willing to put aside their own needs to help other people. But there's no denying that not all Catholics are saints

[seeker]

" the Catholics I know aren't like that, and nor was Jesus. The ones I know are genuinely the most loving, tolerant, generous people I know, and the most willing to put aside their own needs to help other people"

Many of the ones I know are too. Which is why I just can't understand how they can possibly maintain loyalty and allegiance to the Catholic Church. I find it utterly, utterly baffling.

[MandragoraWurzelstock]

Me too Seeker.

please don't misunderstand - she is basically a loving, very kind, generous and do-anything-for-you person and I love her dearly.

But people know that she doesn't approve of their actions and that can be very upsetting all round, for instance a family member is openly gay and maintains very scant contact with her now, basically because no one wants to be pitied, or for someone to be nice to them 'despite' their life choices.

She would never say outright, you're wrong, you're doing something terrible' but they know that's what she believes which is really hurtful to them. She knows this, and acknowledges how awful it must be for them to know she disapproves.

But God and his rules (personally I think they're manmade rules) has to come first.

I find it very hard to live with. I sometime come out with some terrible 'jokes' to try and maintain the lighter mood between us - in the manner of Borat. 'Not too much raping while I am gone, humans only'
and she does laugh while I think 'I can't believe I just said that'

It's not her fault, she has awful OCD and it's all about religion these days. So not a straightforward case of Catholicism gone ballistic.

It's just so sad that people avoid her at times because she's upholding the churchly principles, and she knows this, and doesn't care as God is the one in charge even if everyone did hate her.

[sieglinde]

I too find it hard to understand, seeker and Mandragora. That is, I find it hard to understand how people can forget that the first rule is love. I find the RC church is about love - as in love for everyone, and tolerance. I can only repeat that it's regrettable that not everyone finds it so.

But I bet your mother is a lovely person, Mandragora, and it's good too that she doesn't have mean outbursts. Of course nobody wants to be pitied or looked down on, but maybe there has to be tolerance all round? Maybe the gay family member needs to tolerate her too? Tolerate doesn't mean 'accept entirely' - it derives from the Latin word 'bear'. Maybe each has to bear the other's disapproval and focus on the love.

[Italiangreyhound]

sieglinde some very interesting comments from you, very good to read.

Mandragora I am very sorry for you Mum, I had some OCD like symptons a long time ago (not about religion about door locking and washing hands when I was a teenager) and it was horrible. I never really got any help for it and it was not really recognised as a problem at the time. But I would encourage your mum to get some help if she can.

[seeker]

" I find the RC church is about love - as in love for everyone, and tolerance"

I'm really sorry, but no it isn't!

[PedroYoniLikesCrisps]

Should we be loving Jimmy Saville and tolerating what he did?