The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

[amillionyears]

Tempted by our own desires,yes.
God gives us hurdles.

Tests are not temptations.
I dont feel I can carry on with these posts,unless I am clear you understand the different definitions,dictionary wise.

I think he holds us accountable at 13 years old,purely on the basis of the things that happened to Jesus when he was 12 years old.

No,I dont think that person would get away with their sins.
And that is a huge danger for non Christians.

[nailak]

In Islam God may choose to forgive all sins, the one sin he will not forgive is shirk, or ascribing partners to Him.

Which is the huge danger for trinitarians

[amillionyears]

op,I am not sure if you misunderstood my last post.
I am happy to keep posting on here,but not about the testing/tempting bit.
In one of your posts on another thread you use the word test in its right context,so I think that in time,you will able to work out the difference if you are still personally unsure.

I see that you have started another thread about Jesus.
I could comment on here about that if you wanted me too.

On the back to sunday thread you are saying about making contact with a church,so I hope you have a nice time there.

[nailak]

yes I understand what you describe.

You know on the thread where the little girl is saying jews are the one who have earnt the wrath of Allah, that is exactly what she is decribing, that Moses led them from pharoah, and then after knowing the goodness they rebeled and led others astray by worshipping the calf, and that is why the wrath was on them. It is not meaning hate all Jews or anything like that.

[Machadaynu]

amillionyears and nightlurker as your beliefs have the age of accountability at 13 and 8 respectively, I presume you see nothing wrong in the recent case of a teacher having a relationship with a 15 year-old pupil, as she is clearly way above the age at which you think your God thinks they are able to be held responsible for behaviour for all eternity?

nightlurker you believe Jesus attoned for mankind's sins. To whom was the atonement made, why did they require it, and why did it have to be a murder?

nailak in that video the little girl just says 'the Jews' have earned the wrath of Allah, Not that some Jews earned it, thousands of years ago, in the past.

Also, why will Allah not forgive one specific 'sin' - the sin of not really understanding God, when he is, after all, incomprehensible to the human mind. That seems very unfair.

amillionyears I know the difference between testing and tempting, but I cannot think of any meaningful test that would not involve one being tempted to do the wrong thing - they are, in this context, intertwined. As I said before, one of these is a test that is meanigful, and the other isn't:

Test 1
God says if you love me, give away all your possessions and follow me.

Test 2
God says if you love me, promise never to eat warm donkey poo.

In test 1, the temptation is to pretend not to have heard, or to try and get out of it, because the option of keeping all your stuff if a tempting one to choose. The outcome of this one might give God an indication of how seriously the person believed (although God knows that anyway, so I've no idea why he'd need to test it)

In test 2, there is no temptation to eat warm donkey poo anyway (for most people - not been to Heston's restaurant though) and without that, the result is meaningless. You can pass the test without any problems because there is no temptation to get out of it.

[amillionyears]

In what way do you think the 15 year old has sinned?

[Machadaynu]

I didn't say or imply that I did think the 15 year old has sinned.

However, the common view is that the relationship is unhealthy because of the large age gap and her youth - the thought seems to be that she is too young to be fully aware of the consequences of her actions and that she may be being manipulated by her teacher, especially given his position.

Her age is key to the discomfort most feel about it though. If she were a 25 year old undergraduate having an affair with her 50 year old lecturer I doubt the wider world would notice, but their relationship in terms of teacher/pupil and age gap would be the same - it's that she is so young that is seen as the problem.

However, you seem to think that at 13 one is fully responsible, so presumably you feel totally comfortable with the relationship as she has demonstrated that she has chosen to be in it? Or do you feel uncomfortable with it, which would indicate that you don't think people should be fully responsible for their decisions at 13 and over?

[Machadaynu]

to add though that if they have slept with each other, she has of course sinned according to the bible as she isn't married to him, and he is married to someone else.

[springydaffs]

How interesting to get the chance to sharpen my teeth on this. My life has very definite Job shades to it at the moment, with accompanying 'friends' who can't comprehend the breadth of the awful things that are going down and, in that simplistic way, assume I must have done something wrong. Though I have wondered, as Job wondered.

Back to Job. First off, God is good. It's a good place to start, very comforting and makes perfect sense of everything else (try it: stand and look at things from the lens that God is good - see? it's a good place). I don't know if all that stuff happened to Job but I do know that God is good. (I find the children dying and the wife being beside herself because she's lost her kids the most upsetting - but that's by the by. I have raged at God for similar, if I'm honest, and I know that I am totally accepted, and comforted, by him in my rage, so I don't really know what all that Job's wife stuff is about, not quite. I dont believe God would condemn her for her raw rage and agony, because he hasn't condemned me for similar.)

God suffers and if his spirit is in us (by invitation, he doesn't force), we will suffer too. I think it's the deal if you're serious about agreeing with God about wanting with all your heart for this to come to pass: 'to heal the broken-hearted, bind up their wounds, free the captive' etc ( Isaiah 61 ); wanting to see that unspeakable power pumping through this earth, doing precisely what it says on the tin. I think God has made it absurdly apparent that he wants that too. (Actually, it was him who wanted it first.) There is a positive and a negative force to power, but I'm not a scientist.

imo God works through people. We have the power to walk in a particular direction and for there to be consequences of that direction. The direction things go in on this earth is the direction people propel it. Floods? somebody somewhere has upset the balance. (sorry if that's simplistic). God doesn't do horrible things, he isn't like that.

I can't love my neighbour - are you joking?? - I can't even love God. It's not possible. I am wired looking in the entirely other direction. I don't even like God, much less love him - and I don't want to love him either. Not me in my flesh, so to speak - my flesh hates him because it's me I love and serve. If I love my neighbour it's because he is alive in me (by invitation, there's no other way, it doesn't happen by magic or a kind of oozing in my general direction - and I wasn't born with it, I was born loving myself) and it's him loving my neighbour through me. I want to love my neighbour because he does, but I can't do it myself (or want to, if I'm honest). In myself, I'm not interested to love him or love my neighbour, it's me I love and serve. So there's two things going on - the one who loves me, the one who loves him (I only love him because he is alive in me. invitation to all etc.). I want the latter to take precedence because that's the one with all the power.. to heal the broken-hearted etc. I can't heal the broken-hearted, he heals the broken-hearted through 'me', or anyone who is interested. He'll use anybody to get to his kids, all you have to do is tip up, make yourself available. [and please don't think you can do that incremental stuff eg learning this lesson and that lesson. That's just ridiculous - we can never please God by our own efforts and it's not a test to see how well we do. That would just be capricious on God's part - he knows it's not possible, so don't even go there. It's such a waste of time.]

Unless a seed is first crushed, it can't bear fruit. In myself, I can't bear fruit - or the only fruit I'll bear is loving myself fruit, which goes nowhere, has no power, is useless. Just as Jesus was crushed, so will I be - that part of me that gets in the way because it is so besotted with me. The suffering bit is not pleasant [understatement] but if that's the way of things then I'm willing just about . I'm willing because I want his power on this earth to 'heal the broken-hearted' etc. Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered - it should be no different for me. I don't enjoy the suffering (neither did Jesus) but if that's how it has to be then ok. Not a nano second more than necessary, mind. I don't exactly relish it, I loathe it. My flesh is so opposed to him on every possible level that, left to myself, there is no way his power could work through me (or anybody that tips up for his spirit to do his thing through them). I hate suffering and I hate him for letting me suffer. But I trust him.

So in that sense, we are vessels. The awesome catch is that, in the process of serving him (in his quest to heal the broken-hearted etc) we get set free too - yo! - from the relentless drive to serve and love ourselves (

[springydaffs]

oh yes, I so should have edited that

[nailak]

in that video the girl just says a lot of things without going in depth explanations, if I ask someone who led the jews out of Egypt, you goinna say Moses, not Moses led some Jews out of Egypt thousands of years ago.

[nailak]

with regards to the 15 year old, I do believe that it is possible for a 15 year old to consent, but obviously that is dependant on the particular 15 year old and their maturity.

[GoodPhariseeofDerby]

nailak - There is writings on Satan as the adversary and on supernatural spirits, not so much in the Tanach, though they appear a few times (such as at the beginning of Job), but there is certainly writings on them in the Midrash, Talmud, and other Torah writings certainly. They aren't a principle of faith though so how much of the stories are literal or not is debateable.

I also agree on that video and thought it was very clear in the video and was confused by the ruckus it has caused. There are many groups within Judaism who would say that being in exile and the destruction of the Holy Temple is a continuous punishment and sign of wrath due to senseless hatred that can only be rectified by purposeful love or in the end by the Moshiach (may he come soon) so that wasn't much to disagree with and I certainly didn't see it as hateful speech as some were suggesting.

[nailak]

supernatural spirits? as in jinn? or something else?

[GrimmaTheNome]

What are your views on Job?

Its an ancient piece of fiction. God and Satan are products of the human mind.
Fiction doesn't have to make sense, logical or ethical. You may learn more about the human mind by studying Job so please don't let this rationalist interjection derail the debate.

[Machadaynu]

springydaffs I find it hard to respond to your post. It's hard to start from the position that 'God is good' when the largest section of his book describes him doing, causing or allowing awful things to happen.

I don't believe that you can describe God as good, given what he does, and the fact that he doesn't need to behave like that. God cannot suffer in any meaningful sense because he's God - he can change everything in an instant. I don't believe you can truly suffer if you have the power to end your suffering.

Or, in the words of Jarvis Cocker - "Rent a flat above a shop, cut your hair and get a job. Smoke some fags and play some pool, pretend you never went to school. But still you'll never get it right 'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall If you call your Dad he could stop it all.
You'll never live like common people You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people You'll never watch your life slide out of view"

God might want us to think he suffers, but he doesn't really - not if he is really God.

[springydaffs]

So if your kids are hurt (excuse assumption) it doesn't hurt you? If your kids are snubbed by their friends, say, it hurts you. YOu could do something about it but you don't. But it hurts you. If it hurts you and me that babies die needlessly in some countries, that kids are kidnapped and used as sex slaves - and we don't even know them - then it hurts God. God suffers because love suffers, is essentially vulnerable.

(thank you for your polite response btw when my post was so hectic)

[Machadaynu]

Of course it hurts me in an emotional sense if the kid is upset or injured. And the news upsets me so much I rarely watch it/

I'm not God though. If I was, I'd simply stop bad things from happening to my children.

Free will is a concept that is important in theology, but in real life we don't let our kids have it. I don't let her wander off out the house on her own (kid is 3 btw) I don't let her touch the pans to see how hot they are. I don't let her try and drive the car even though she really wants to. In short, she doesn't have free will. As a loving parent I step in to curtail it so that bad things don't happen to her. Of course I'm not perfect, so she's knocked herself out twice and we get through out fair share of plasters.

God is supposed to be perfect though, and he could stop us from suffering. I'd gladly give up the bit of my free will that allows mankind to do bad things in return, and then we'd all be happy - God too. I don't understand how letting your children suffer - often for things they didn't do and have no control over - is thought of as unavoidable and somehow worthy. It's like believers don't truly believe God to be that powerful.

[nailak]

you know how we say people need to make their own decisions and own mistakes? when our kids are grown would we still stop them doing the things you mention.

but you are still coming from the point that suffering is bad. whereas those who believe in afterlife believe this world is fleeting and the suffering will be rewarded with something much better.

It would be easy to be please with your fate if only good things happen, but the whole point is the test.

[Machadaynu]

I will continue to curtail her free will for as long as I think I need to. If she is about to step out in front of traffic when she is 50, I'll try and stop her (I say try as I'll be v. old then!)

In short, if I know for a fact she is doing something that is 'bad' I will stop her. Obviously as she gets older it will be a case of allowing her to use her own judgement, because aside from things involving physical danger, such as not noticing traffic, I don't actually know for certain what will happen in most situations because I'm not God so most decisions are just a judgement call for us.

It's not like that for God though - he knows what the outcome of our choices will be even before we make them, and he can always intervene. He doesn't, though.

[nailak]

its not a test if you are given all the right answers is it though?

the whole point is we have free will, and we are responsible for our decisions, thats what makes us humans

[springydaffs]

well, I don't really have my eye on the afterlife tbh. yy it'll be fab I'm sure, but right now, it's this life that interests me. There's enough here to be 'interested' in - like the kids sold into sex-slavery eg. I don't want that to carry on, I can hardly bear it. I'm not thinking about the by-and-by on that one, I'm thinking here and now.

don't mean to patronise OP but your kid is 3. When she's 13, come back and tell me about the things you stop happening to her so she'll be happy

[Machadaynu]

Why does it need to be a test?

I don't test my kid, I just want her to be fulfilled and happy. I don't need to create choices - some of which are bad - to see which she will take, and I don't need her to prove she loves me by following lots of rules.

Why does God want us to be tested?

[springydaffs]

test? test? what is this blasted test??

life is testing enough without any 'tests' ffs. dear, dear. God must be very bored if he's throwing 'tests' our way.