The Book of Job

[Machadaynu]

I mentioned my thoughts on The Book of Job in the 'Back to Church' thread, and it was suggested that I start a new thread about it. So here it is.

The story of the book of Job is (to quote myself from the other thread):

God is chatting to Satan and mentions how Job is his best follower and would never lose faith. Satan essentially has a bet with God that Job would turn on God if his life wasn't so great. God, for some reason, accepts this deal with the proviso that Satan doesn't kill Job. It's not explained why God is chewing the fat with Satan rather than, say, destroying him completely, what with God being omnipotent and Satan being pure evil.

Anyway, Satan sends all sorts of illness to Job, kills all his animals, destroys his farm and kills his entire family. God, being omniscient, knew this would happen when he took on the bet - he knew Job would suffer, and he knew Job would remain true to him. Quite why he needed to prove this to Satan (pure evil, remember) is something of a mystery.

In the end God gives Job twice as many animals as before, and 10 new children, including 3 daughters that were prettier than the ones God allowed Satan to kill.

Christians see this as a story of how faith is rewarded (even if you're only suffering because God is trying to prove a point to Satan) I see it as a story of how God will use us as he sees fit, is insecure and vain and is apparently either unable, or unwilling, to resist being influenced by Satan.

I contrast God's treatment of Job, his wife and children - all "God's children" used as pawns in a game, and suffering terribly for it - and wonder what we'd make of a human father treating his children in such a way. I expect the MN opinion would be rather damning to say the least. Yet when God does it, it becomes an inspiring story, and God is love, apparently.

Christians, I am told, see the book as a lesson in why the righteous suffer. The answer, it seems, is that their all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing, benevolent holy father is sometimes prone to abandoning people to the worst excesses of Satan to try and prove some kind of point to God knows who.

Seems odd to me. God does not show love in that story. God shows himself to be deeply unpleasant. Or not God.

What are your views on Job?

[amillionyears]

God tests Christians,definitely yes.
He does not give us more than we can cope with.
The testing is about seeing if we can manage a few more steps in our personal Christian journey towards trying to become "mature and complete,lacking in nothing".

[Machadaynu]

amillionyears you said "God tempts no one,or uses anyone to tempt us. " at 15:14

at 16:53 you are now saying "God tests Christians,definitely yes."

So how does he test us, if it isn't to give us challenges which it might be easier (tempting) to avoid confronting?

[nailak]

good how do you mean? like genuinely what are the differences?

I agree with amillion in the Quran its says god "does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear"

[Machadaynu]

crescentmoon I do find it fascinating how similar the Abrahamic faiths are.

When you say "all of what he had lost was restored to him, and he was blessed with more beside" I wonder if the Qur'anic story is the same as the bible too, in that he got more livestock and so on - and new children to replace the slain ones, but this time with prettier daughters?

"So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. He had also seven sons and three daughters. And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. "

[amillionyears]

God does not tempt us.


He tests us in order to strengthen us,for us to find out our own gaps,faith wise.And for us to hopefully do something about it.That may involve changing our thoughts or changing our actions or both.

As Christians,we have to try to love our neighbour,be gentle,be kind,be helpful etc etc.
So God may for example,send us a neighbour that is difficult for us to live beside.
There is no temptation involved,but this may involve a series of tests for us to try and overcome in a Christian loving way.

[Machadaynu]

but you are tempted to be rude to your bad neighbour, or to ignore them - that's the test, isn't it? Will you be nice to them even though they are difficult, or will you be tempted to take the easier route?

The temptation to do the 'wrong' thing is the test, isn't it?

[GoodPhariseeofDerby]

Nailak I was just noticing the differences and similarities in the comments you and I make compared to amillionyears.

In Christianity, Satan is a fallen rebelling angel who seems to have become pure evil, drawing people away from God, it seems a very dualistic of God v Satan.

Whereas in Judaism and Islam, nothing could be beyond God's control and angels have no free will (so can't rebel), Satan is an agent of temptation. In Judaism he is the Adversary/Prosecutor who, along with our bad deeds, will prosecute against us in our final judgment.

Lately, I've been finding the similarities and differences interesting. I was talking the other day with someone on the similarities, particularly how Judaism considers Islam a Noahide faith whereas most Christian faiths are not mostly due to the dualistic nature (and obvious added divinity) within it.

[nailak]

In Islam shaytaan is a jinn btw.

I was always taught there is nothing in the Jewish scriptures about shaytaan/iblees is this wrong?

[amillionyears]

Do you think you understand the dictionary definition of temptation
and the dictionary definition of testing?
They are 2 different things and have 2 distinct meanings.

[amillionyears]

God tests.
God does not tempt.

[nailak]

so can you explain it then?

God tests us, so if someone is rude we may be tempted to be rude back

he gives us time we may be tempted to sit on mumsnet rather then do our work

etc

what test doesnt involve temptation?

[amillionyears]

As Christians if we fail at testing,we fail,but that is not a sin.
If we fail at temptation that can be a sin.If we eat a piece of cake,that is not a sin.If we sleep with our best friends girlfriend,that is a sin.

[Machadaynu]

amillionyears you keep saying God tests but doesn't tempt.

What I am trying to establish is how he tests if it is not to give us a choice of things to do, one of which is the 'correct' thing and one of which is 'wrong' but nevertheless tempting.

[amillionyears]

The answer is in the verses I quoted from James.
One is tempted by ones own desires.

The burden and buck stops with us on this one.
He gives us the choices,but we are tempted by our own desires.

[amillionyears]

We have responsibilities whivh we cannot escape,unless we are very young,or mentally incapable in some way.

[Machadaynu]

So we are tempted by our own desires (which God knows about, even if they stem from him letting the serpent into Eden and not directly from him)

Right.

So God gives us choices to test us, and we are tempted by our own desires, which God knows about because he's God.

So by giving us choices God knows we will be tempted to choose the 'wrong' one - so by giving us tests, God is placing us in the way of temptation. Even the Lord's prayer - given to us by Jesus - acknowledges that God has the power to lead us in to temptation and often does, so we have to ask him not to.

At what age do you think God holds us accountable, do you think? And what happens to someone who lives half their life as a God-hating, despicable villain, and then has an accident making them mentally incapable in some way? Do they get away with all the sins of the first half of their life because they are no longer mentally capable of asking for forgiveness?

[Machadaynu]

Can I just clarify that when I said I was tempted to have a fling with "the attractive friend of a friend's gf" I meant that she was the friend of my friends GF - that's how I met her: I went for a drink with him and he met up with his GF who had gone for a drink with her friend. I did not have a fling with the GF of the friend of a friend! Punctuation eh?

[nailak]

I think mayne amillion means shaytaan puts the thoughts in our head but we make the decision

At the time of Bani Israel, there was a man in a small village, called Barsisa. He was, what you call, a monk. But he was a true Christian. He believed in Tawheed and believed Isa (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allah. One day three brothers decided to go for Jihad. But they had a sister and they did not want to leave her alone. So they went looking for someone to take care of her. The town people suggested to leave her with Barsisa, because of his piety.
So they went to him and when they asked him, he said, ?I seek refuge from the cursed Shaytan? and said No! This was because he was scared of falling into sin ( due to the potential fitnah it may cause).
Then Shaytan came to Barsisa in the form of Waswasah (Whisperings). Shaytan is very smart and knew Barsisa had a soft heart. So he told Barsisa, ?What if they can?t find someone good and leave her with someone bad, wouldn?t that be your fault?? Now Barsisa did not realise this was Shaytan whispering in his heart, and because of his compassion for others, he decided to accept their request and help the woman.
He let her stay in a house opposite the church. He did this so that it would be easy for him to leave her her food outside the church and she could come get it herself. But after sometime, shaytan returned. This time he told Barsisa, ?Why don?t you leave the food closer for her, so that people don?t see her moving back and forth alone!? Barsisa agreed and started leaving the food outside the house. But shaytan wasn?t happy with this either, so sometime later, he returned and ask Barsisa, ?Why don?t you go in and leave it on the table, so that no one sees her coming out and going in alone all the time!? Again, Barsisa agreed and he started leaving the food on the table.
Then as time went by, Shaytan returned and said to him, ?Why don?t you talk to her, she is all alone and has no one to talk to!? Barsisa agreed and started talking to her from behind a door (so as to screen himself). But this would lead them to almost shouting to each other to here themselves. Shaytan asked Barsisa to just go in and talk to her, and finally, he (Shaytan) had got the alone in a room.
Shaytan had completed the difficult part. It wasn?t after Barsisa and the woman committed fornication. And to make things worse, she also became pregnant.
As soon as the baby was born, Shaytan returned, and said to Barsisa, ?What have you done? Look at the result of your evil (ie the child), get ride of the evidence otherwise the brothers will kill you!?
Barsisa killed the baby and buried it in the same room the woman was in. Shaytan then told Barsisa, ?Do you think you can kill the child of a woman and expect her not to tell anyone?!? and So Barsisa killed her and buried her along side the baby! He then made a fake grace outside and when her brothers returned, he informed them that she died of illness. After seeing the grave and make dua for her, they returned home and accepted Allah?s decree.
Later that night, Shaytan came to them in their dream and informed them about what Barsisa had done and where the child and their sister could be found. The brother got up upset and confused, and informed his brothers of the dream, and they both said they had the same dream.
So they believed that it must be true, and when and dug up the fake grave and found it empty. They then dug the placed shaytan showed them in the dream and found the child and woman!
Furious, the brothers took Barsisa to the Leader to get his punishment. Barsisa knew that he would be given the death penalty. Shaytan came to Barsisa again, for the final time this time.
This time he revealed himself and told him he was the one whispering the thoughts to him. And he said that he could save Barsisa, and as long as Barsisa makes sujood to him! Barsisa, out of desperation made Sujood to him , this confirmed his Kufr (disbelief) and Shaytan said to him ?I am free of you, I fear Allâh, the Lord of the ?Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!? and left Barsisa was stonned to death and on the day of judgement he will be resurrected making Sujood to Shaytan!
So look how shaytan tricked him. He came to him as a friend, but was infact his biggest enemy!
(Their allies deceived them) like Shaitân (Satan), when he says to man:
?Disbelieve in Allâh.? But when (man) disbelieves in Allâh, Shaitân (Satan) says: ?I am free of you, I fear Allâh, the Lord of the ?Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!? (Al-Hashr 59:16)
Shaytan will never make you sin directly, he will always trick you using Waswasah and he is more patient than any of us. So we should always seek refuge in Allah from Shayatn. Never think you have enough knowledge or are strong enough to take on Shaytan.
This is why the Scholars of Islam are the ones with the most Taqwa, fear of Allah. So reflect on the story, if Shaytan told Barsisa to make sujood in the beginning, Barsisa would have said no staright away, but Shaytan has a plan in hand it was a step by step policy that made Barsisa finally breakdown and commit Kufr.
Reference for above story: Stories in the Quran ? Ibn Kathir ? 110