Giving advice to first time mother on Gina Ford routine and comforting

[speedymama]

My friend gave birth 12 days ago to her first baby. She had telephoned me for advice because like with all first time mothers, she wants to do her best.

The first issue is to do with getting the baby into a routine. She is trying to do the GF method but baby is still waking up at night for its feed (when she called me the baby was 8 days old). I told her that she needs to give it time and that it could take several weeks to establish a routine (it took me about 4 months with my twins).

Secondly, the baby is using her breast as a comforter. The baby tries to put her thumb in her mouth but always misses. The mother does not want baby to suck its thumb because she'll have trouble stopping when she is older. I told her that if that is the way the baby will receive its comfort, then let her suck her thumb and help her by putting her thumb in her mouth. DT1 is a thumb sucker and I use to put his thumb in his mouth when he could not do it.

This is the first time I have given advice to a RL new mother and I hope my advice will help her rather than create problems for her in the future. What do you think?

[Lazycow]

In theory yes - but the problem with that is if you are having a terrible time breastfeeding and are scared to go out and breastfeed in public in the early weeks - going out of the door without having some (admitedly rough and probably fallacious) idea of when the next feed is due makes it almost impossoble to contemplate going out.

Also ds was one of those babies who would cry terribly when overstimulated and tired and nothing would calm him. He didn't want to feed and would actively try to come off the breast when he was like this. This meant trips out were often fraught as ds would't sleep well in his pushchair at all. All this got in the way of being able to go out.

As time went on I relaxed a bit and managed to see that I was getting into a tizz over stuff I couldn't control but in the early days I needed something I could hang my day on. For me it was when ds was next likely to need a feed.

[speedymama]

My DM thinks the baby is hungry and that my friend should introduce formula feed as this will be more filling. What do you think?

[HenriettaHippo]

Lazycow, thanks! I agree totally with you. When I brought DS1 home from the hospital at 2 days, I could hardly walk from a C section, cried most of the time, and didn't have a clue how to even start understanding what my baby needed. I was nowhere near pnd, just traumatised and knackered (and that bit didn't change for a few months...!!). The reflex reaction was to put him to the breast every time he cried. It wasn't always what he wanted! When people said to go with the flow, I felt like shouting, "but I don't know what the flow is!". At least if I tried to make sure that DS had a feed at least every 3 hours (from start of feed to start of feed), I could begin to see that my day might consist of manageable chunks of time. That didn't mean that if he cried for a further dose of milk after 2 hours, or 1 1/2 hours, I ignored him, it just meant that at the start of the day I wasn't already dreading it. It also meant that I could see my nights getting gradually better, as he would go longer between feeds over night by small amounts over the next weeks...

[HenriettaHippo]

Speedy, don't advise a formula feed. That will only damage your friend's milk supply. And it won't make her baby sleep for longer, ime. Instead, see if your friend has the energy to maybe express a little so her partner/DH can help out, perhaps in the evening, so she can retire to bed early and get some rest, knowing that she might get a good few hours before her boobs are required again!

Also has she tried feeding lying down on her side with her baby latched on lying down too. She might find that more relaxing, esp in the evening.

Perhaps she and her partner could also make sure that at some point in each day/evening, she gets to relax, just for half an hour, maybe a warm bath with lavendar oil, perhaps he should do all the cooking for the next month. Whatever helps.

[CatIsSleepy]

mums always think that, I reckon (the baby being hungry I mean).

I really don't know about the more filling bit- am not sure if that is the case though I do remember hearing that formula milk takes longer to digest.

Giving her baby a bottle-if she's happy to do it-would at least give her a bit of a break, regardless of whether it's more filling for the baby.

The baby could be suckling for so long for comfort, as I'm sure has been discussed already, and it's probably getting plenty of breastmilk (although it's very very easy to get paranoid about that, as I certainly did...).

[HenriettaHippo]

want to add a bit more to that - as your friend's baby is still so tiny, her milk supply is still building up. In these early days, it really is little and often for feeds, as that is how the milk supply grows. Introducing formula will mean that the baby is getting some milk that isn't sourced from her mum, and your friend's breasts will adjust accordingly, and not produce so much.

At least, I think that's how it works - supply and demand basically.

[speedymama]

I have trouble knowing what to advise for the best because I did a mix of breast and bottle. My twins were in SCBU for three weeks and were given Pre-aptimal to help them put on weight. By the time they came home they were more or else in a routine thanks to the hospital. I managed to breast feed both of them for 10 months but it was supplemented with formula feed.

Personally, I don't want to suggest the formula route. I just want to find some way of giving her some relief from the breast feeding, particularly as she is turning to me for advice.

[Lazycow]

SM - your friend probably just needs to revise her expectations of life with a young baby. I rememember being in floods of tears regularly because I thought my life would never be the same again and that frankly I'd ruined my life. Nothing seemed as much fun any more and I got very little pleasure from anything. Has she filled in that form the midwives give you to asses whether you are depressed yet?

Could you print out some of the experiences from this thread so that she can see others have had the same problem

I don't know if she has pnd but I'd say she is at risk. For me the breastfeeding hellped me develop and maintain the bond with ds. If I had bottlefed I would definitely have left ds more with dh and our bond would probably have suffered more than it did anyway.


I wonder if she thinks bottlefeeding would make the baby fit into a routine more. I have noticed that more bottle fed babies (though not all) tend to get into a routine of feeding. I think this is mostly becasue the mother is confident that the baby has had a certain amount to eat and can therefore wait a while if necessary.

With breastfeeding this is really difficult to do as we don't know how much the baby has had so we constantly offer the breast again every time the baby cries - just in case they are hungry.

I'm assuming the baby is gaining weight well. If so bottle feeding will not give more calories. What it might do is make the mother more confident the baby has fed well and therefore less likely to be constantly offering food every time he/she cries. For some more placid babies that will be the start of a feeding routine.

If she wants to bottlefeed I think she needs to be aware of the reasons she is doing it.

[princessmel]

I'd tell her to expect nothing.
Except that she'll be tired and have wakefull nights for weeks, maybe months or in my childrens cases years!
She should just aim to get her baby to sleep any way she can to start off with . You can't spoil newborns and bad habits are not formed till they are older.
Breast, thumb, cuddles, whatever works.

Now is not the time for routines imo.

She's just given birth and should be bonding, resting and enjoying her baby.

Stuff GF. Sorry GF fans!!!

[princessmel]

Just read rest of thread. I'm sorry she's so down sm. But I'm glad she's dropped the cc.

You're a good friend.

[CatIsSleepy]

Lazy, I think you have made good points about the routine and confidence thing with bottle-feeding.

Deciding how to feed your baby is a very personal decision and it is hard to give advice I think. I certainly don't want to give bad advice on formula-feeding if that is something your friend doesn't want to do.

I had wanted to exclusively breastfeed but found it a lot harder than I had anticipated. Starting to give one bottle of formula a night (from about 3 weeks) felt in some ways like failure. But it helped me to get much-needed rest and set my mind at rest that at least I knew dd had had a 'full' feed when it was time for us all to go to bed...

Also I hated expressing-I had a hand pump and it seemed to take forever to get a pathetic dribble out. I never tried an electric pump though- if expressing had been easier and quicker I would probably have done more of it.

Mixed feeding definitely did affect my supply- after a few more weeks I started to give two bottles and continued that til dd was around 4 or 5 months. After that it was a gradual tailing off of breast-feeding, with just one short breastfeed a day by 7 months. Now by then I was fairly happy with the situation. Dd was happy and healthy and that was plenty for me (to date she has had a sum total of 2 colds in her lifetime)! But your friend may feel differently and want to continue breast-feeding a lot more, and for longer. So it's really up to her, she needs to think about what's most important for her and her baby.

[speedymama]

She does want to breast feed hence why I am reluctant to mention anything about formula.

Tbh, I feel totally inadequate about giving advice. She thinks I'm a Supermum because I have twins, they have a routine etc but the truth is, they were good babies so it was more fortuitous rather than deliberate.

[kiskidee]

this is all MY opinions and i do have a v. good understanding of how bf works as i am a peer supporter for a bf charity. GF's routines are heavily dependent on a baby taking in some amt of formula - which may or may not alter their sleep patterns. by the time a baby is 12 wks old, she outlines a strategy aimed at discontinuing or limiting bf. Gina's understanding of bf is very very limited.

The crux of the issue is that sleep routines and feeding routines in babies are inextricably linked. Simply put, a FF baby will feed and sleep differently from a BF one. To follow the routine while bf is trying to put a square peg in a round hole. My dd never, ever, went for longer than 2 hrs between bf and was usually no longer than 1.5 hrs. To attempt to follow Ford's routines would have been torture for me and torture for my baby. I have read the book well, but know now with hindsight and more knowledge about infant sleep and feeding that her routine would have sent me into PND. I am not being deliberately controversial with the last sentence either. In view of what i know now about the biological aspects of infant sleep, and breastfeeding, and the primeval needs of a newborn and a new mum, Ford's routines would have sent me over the edge.

It was a great shock for me to realise that i went into labour as a career woman of the 21st century and left hospital with as a stone age mum with a stone age baby.

the third reviewer on this page sounds like a qualified bf counsellor to me.

[kiskidee]

speedymama, can you find out where is the nearest baby group run by the nct or lll and introduce her to it? if she really wants to bf (and follow ford's advice as some bf mums have been able to do) these people will be able to guide her along gently.

what about telling her gently that you really want to make sure she gets excellent advice and sometimes you are doubting some of the things you are saying and tell her about the nct and lll helplines. Their counselling is not just for bf problems. they also counsel sleep and post natal issues too because these things are inextricably linked to breastfeeding.

[Danae]

Message withdrawn

[HenriettaHippo]

kiskidee, it is possible to use GF's book and bf a baby exclusively for as long as you like. I've done it twice. But it is too easy to get sucked into watching the clock and get stressed if your baby doesn't want to wait that long.

TBH, although it's worked for me, for that reason I don't think I'd recommend TCLBB to a first time new mum now, I'd recommend Tracy Hogg's Baby Whisperer, which is also all about routine, but much more relaxed and intuitive I think. It's about listening to your baby and trying to understand what it is that they need, and then responding.

[kiskidee]

i qoute myself from my last post: "if she really wants to bf (and follow ford's advice as some bf mums have been able to do)"

[Mumpbump]

When ds was born, one of my friends gave me a copy of a table from Australia which outlined how long the baby should be able to stay awake at different stage and suggested that you try to encourage a pattern of sleep/feed/play. Never worked for me as ds feed too frequently, but I think just knowing that your baby can only stay awake for 1.5 to 2 hours at this age can help you feel more like there is a routine, if you are the type of person who needs structure. Once you are aware of this, you can develop your own baby-led routine, but be prepared for it to change every couple of weeks or so.

[Mumpbump]

Here's a link to a website which has some very good practical Ozzie advice...

"routines" for newborns

[dragonstitcher]

I think that I made more mistakes trying to do it the 'right' way rather than my own way. I wish that I just went with what I felt was right instead of what is expected.