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Can a child have anger issues from birth? Born bad?

75 replies

misslavery · 25/07/2013 21:13

My sister has a two half yr old girl who from the day she was born screamed and shouted, didn't want to be cuddled, is demanding and manipulative. I see them around once a week and the toddler is always the same, my mum and brother see it too and it's getting to the point were it's becoming stressful to bring my child (20 months) to my sisters house for fear that she will be hit, bitten and screamed at.
My sister doesn't seem to want discipline the toddler and panders to her every wimper. She has a five yr old sister who acts up a lot as she sees the younger one getting her way. My sis doesn't have a problem disciplining the 5 yr old which completely confuses her.
The toddler speaks with a really croaky voice as she's always screaming. She never makes eye contact. She always look bedraggled, pale sick and tired.
She can squeal like a banshee all day long if she doesnt get her way. However she's a smart little lady, quite Tom boyish, fearless and what most would call a 'character'.
This isn't the terrible twos going on, she has always been like this and my sister is a very intelligent school teacher who seems to know a lot about child behaviour but just won't open he eyes to her own children.
My relationship with my sister has its ups and downs and I've come to realise that it's best I say nothing with regards to how she parents or lives her life but I do worry about this child. Could this child have a hormonal imbalance or something that a child physiatrist could work on or is she just too young? During the pregnancy my sister had major issues with her husband and I know it was a difficult time for them. Has the child picked up on this in utero?
Before I left her house (in a rush) I suggested she give the child some rescue remedy, that's as much as I could say without having the door slammed in my face. I'd really like some advice on this as I am going to have a conversation about it if I think it will help the child and if my sister can't take it then I'll totally back off and leave her too it.
Thanks for reading x

OP posts:
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anna891 · 31/07/2013 12:15

^lottieandmia
How is saying that people are born bad supposed to help the OP?^

The op asked the question 'Can a child have anger issues from birth? Born bad?'

So I'm replying to that.

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anna891 · 31/07/2013 12:20

MargeSimpsonz
No you can't label a toddler, but the OP asked a question;
Can a child be born bad?
The answer is yes, according to my research.

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MargeSimpsonz · 31/07/2013 12:35

I can't be bothered to cut and paste your links as I've read better articles on the subject I'm sure.

Can you see how children with ODD or PDAS might be labelled 'bad'?

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anna891 · 31/07/2013 12:48

I can't be bothered to cut and paste your links as I've read better articles on the subject I'm sure.
If you have read 'better articles' and are well inform then you will be aware of the latest scientific research, which indicates psychopaths are born, not made.
Not that it applies to this individual child, probably not, I was just answering the op's question.

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Maryz · 31/07/2013 13:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MargeSimpsonz · 31/07/2013 13:21

But Anna, it's far too early to start assuming that.

First of all, look into issues that might cause the child to be in distress. NO child (or adult for that matter) can be in a good mood if they have a bad back or a headached.

Second, there are a lot of developmental issues or spectrum disorders that haven't been ruled out yet!! The child hasn't even been assessed!!

My x is a narcissist. He probably also had unsupported Asperger Syndrome and most relevant, a lot of bad parenting which was a terrible combination. He has no empathy, no emotional intelligence really and even though life with him was tough, he behaves in a way that is very selfish, however, I don't even know if I would label him simply 'bad'. He is a human being with a few chips missing.

Tell me how a parent would distinguish between ODD / PDAS and being a psychopath then???? because they would present the same at 3 years old

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ConstantCraving · 31/07/2013 14:42

Anna I think its insensitive to say the least to post these theories on this thread. Why would you jump to this conclusion rather than the obvious ones that other posters have suggested? There is indeed much evidence that psychopath's brains are different to other people's brains. My understanding of this is that significant trauma, neglect and abuse at an early age affects the development of a child's brain - so in that way children's development can be affected and can lead to a child growing up unable to empathise and displaying extreme behaviour. this is NOT the same as being 'born bad'.

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HazelnutMilk1 · 31/07/2013 14:54

I am with anna

'Born bad' is obviously a dangerous phrase but I don't think op or Anna are calling for a witch hunt of pre- schoolers, it's just a nature v nurture debate.

Obviously it's both but personality is partly something kids are born with. Some kids have less kindness and empathy - not in an autistic way, in a sociopathic way. Getting this out into the open could help those kids and their parents and society.

I agree a lot of sociopathy is down to, or catalysed by, abuse but in some cases it isn't.

Don't think the op's neice sounds sociopathic. I do wonder about my nephew.

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lottieandmia · 31/07/2013 17:22

Labeling a child as psychopathic or saying some children are bound to be psychopaths because of their genes is a lazy way of writing people off imo.

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riskit4abiskit · 31/07/2013 17:58

there is an interesting talk if anyone is interested on 'TED'

www.ted.com/talks/jim_fallon_exploring_the_mind_of_a_killer.html

'Neuroscientist Jim Fallon talks about brain scans and genetic analysis that may uncover the rotten wiring in the nature (and nurture) of murderers. In a too-strange-for-fiction twist, he shares a fascinating family history that makes his work chillingly personal.'

although I do think that 2 years old is too young to label someone anything at all!

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SunnyIntervals · 31/07/2013 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spanky2 · 31/07/2013 18:20

Could she be on the autistic spectrum or have a sensory disorder? It might explain the fussy eating an general unhappiness she is exhibiting . You need to give your sister some support .

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quickchat · 31/07/2013 21:54

I had 3 with reflux (lucky me)! My youngest is still on medication as he is 11 months.

The gruff voice does sound familiar. If she has had undiagnosed reflux then her esophagus would be damaged making eating very painful and making her generally quite miserable.

My 3rd DC has the most awful temper. Im finding it quite strange to see a baby with such anger. Neither my husband or I are bad tempered by nature and my other DS and DD are pretty laid back too.

He cried constantly as babies with reflux do but unlike the other two it carried on well past 6 months. He has calmed a little but still cries so much for a 11 month old. Usually a delightful stage.
He goes rigid with temper and lunges at me to bite me or lashes out with his hands. Never seen a baby act like this before. It doesn't take much to set him off.
He can also be adorable at times with an amazing smile and giggle and he loves his big brother and sister and can be extremely affectionate too. If it wasn't for these odd moments Id be convinced there is something wrong with him.

He sleeps all night and I make sure he gets his two naps in his cot or life would be hell with his temper! He won't sleep in his buggy at all. Not easy with one at school and one at nursery but I go to extreme lengths to give him his sleep. Poor DS & DD have to walk on eggshells in the house when he is napping.

Im digressing majorly hear but Im just pointing out that yes, babies can be born with a temper I suppose. I can't explain why as im baffled myself.

Funny you should mention your sister and BiL having problems during the PG. We were having major financial problems when I found out I was PG with him and I was devastated at the time. I was very emotional and short tempered during the PG. I wonder at times if that could have impacted on him Sad.

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quickchat · 31/07/2013 21:55

here not hear Blush

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greenbananas · 31/07/2013 23:40

Anna 891, I don't want to collude in derailing the thread, but when were the brain scans on those born psychopaths and sociopaths done? As I understand it (and I am not an expert), early deprivation of parental affection can cause long term brain damage impacting on behaviour, especially the development of attachment, empathy etc. Am not denying that nature is a huge determining factor, but nurture also plays a vital part. I'm willing to accept that some children are born with a brain structure that it makes it more difficult for them to empathise, play along with social norms, live responsibly in community etc... but I still believe very firmly that no child is born "bad". Even somebody who has suffered early damage, and is technically a psychopath, and who has no inbuilt sense of personal responsibility, can still be taught to "play by the rules" and encouraged to embrace intellectually the idea that society works better if we all have respect for each other. Not all psychopaths end up as criminals.

Anyway, OP, how are you feeling about all this? I hope you are able to take some positives from this thread and ignore anything that isn't helpful. Quite a few people have mentioned reflux, autism and food intolerance, so I hope those are worth following up. I also hope you have managed to think about ways you might want to talk about this with your sister. You know your own relationship best.

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anna891 · 01/08/2013 11:28

^lottieandmia Wed 31-Jul-13 17:22:17
Labeling a child as psychopathic or saying some children are bound to be psychopaths because of their genes is a lazy way of writing people off imo.^

Lets be exact. I have labelled no one. I am NOT diagnosing this child.

I am, I repeat, replying to the OPs question 'Can a person be born bad' I answered that, according the some of the latest research, yes they can.
James Fallon a well respected neuroscientist, after having brain scans discovered he has the brain of a psychopath.

He was not abused as a child

He believes his exceptionally good childhood saved him from being a criminal. He was born without the ability to feel empathy, fear or to have a conscience.
On a recent TV documentary his family said they always knew he was 'different' and that there had been times when they were frightened of him.
Most psychopaths are not criminals, many do well in business, it is thought up to 25% of very successful business men are narcissists/psychopaths types, their lack of conscience enables them to be ruthless and still sleep at night.

It not about 'labeling' it is about considering all options, it has been found that if a child exhibits sociopathic/psychopathic tendencies the earlier they receive help the better the outcome, remembering that some children will not (like James Fallon) have an exceptionally good childhood to save them.
If the child has problems whatever they may be, early help will be good.
To ignore a option because its not fluffy bunny sweet is 'lazy' and it will not help to bury your head in the sand.

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lottieandmia · 01/08/2013 11:35

I wondered about reflux too - OP, has your friend considered that? Sometimes reflux goes undiagnosed for some time and can cause a very unhappy, constantly miserable child. My friend's dd had it.

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anna891 · 01/08/2013 11:54

HazelnutMilk1
'Born bad' is obviously a dangerous phrase but I don't think op or Anna are calling for a witch hunt of pre- schoolers, it's just a nature v nurture debate.

Obviously it's both but personality is partly something kids are born with. Some kids have less kindness and empathy - not in an autistic way, in a sociopathic way. Getting this out into the open could help those kids and their parents and society.


Well thankyou Hazelnut, I'm feeling like the villain here, not my intention.
I used to believe it was all about nurture, but through my own observation and reading the latest research I have changed my mind. Now I believe genes have a big part to play, a good environment will bring out the best in a person, a bad environment can destroy.

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LurcioLovesFrankie · 01/08/2013 13:10

I second all those posters above who've suggested looking into causes, in the form of reflux, digestive problems, glue ear, etc.

Regarding the issue of sociopathic/ narcissistic tendencies, the crucial piece of detail you're missing in your account, anna891, is the word "epigenetic". Without that, you're grossly oversimplifying Fallon's research. Most of the genes he studies are not by default expressed - they require environmental factors to "switch them on" - often, sadly, in the form of early childhood trauma.

(I've followed Fallon's research with interest as I have a close relative who is a sociopath - not my armchair diagnosis, btw, that's the diagnosis of the criminal psychologist on his offender management team. Not excusing what the guy in question did, but he was physically abused by his father during childhood, sexually abused by a trusted adult, and failed massively by the health service and social services who did nothing to help despite his mother's attempts to access help for his self harm, suicide attempts and undiagnosed ADHD. It's a massive, massive, and unhelpful oversimplification to say "it's the genes what done it).

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MargeSimpsonx · 01/08/2013 14:35

Wow. LurcioLovesFrankie. I know you say you don't want to derail the thread, and me neither, OP, ignore me, this is just a comment to LurcioLovesFrankie, this is the reason {epigenetics} that I don't worry my son will turn out like his father. I read through the specs for Pathalogical Demand Avoidance Syndrome and Oppositional Defiance Disorder, and although I thought, hmm, yeh, this can be my son, more than that I thought "eureka this is his father". But his father was a disappointment to his parents who wanted a more easy going sociable child. He was ignored by them at times, or mocked, and even sometimes TIED UP. He was totally unsupported at school too, despite being clever. So he got four As at school and went on to a good university where from then on he was autonomous and the old issues became less apparent. Unless you were trying to reach a compromise with him!! Hmm and then you were in trouble.

My son has been loved, supported, nurtured, given extra help at school through social role play and dealing with anger role play and empathy role play. school has been fantastic and he's always rewarded and praised when he does co-operate or yield to please somebody else, so I might be optimistic but I see him having a much better chance of having equal relationships when he's older. Although bloody hell it'd have to be with a strong person who could hold their own.

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attheendoftheday · 04/08/2013 10:51

I do not believe children can be born 'bad'. There is some suggestion (although it is not something all psychologists agree on) that children can be born with psychopathic traits. This is not the same as being born bad. Lots of people have psychopathic traits, they do not make you evil, and they can be helpful (for example, they can be helpful in business). Part of my job is assessing offenders on the psychopathy scale and giving treatment, so I'm not talking out of my arse.

Narcissism is a personality disorder, you are not born with a personality disorder.

When I've worked with families where one member has been labelled as the 'problem' it is most often a case that other family members is locating traits within themselves that they are unhappy or anxious about within that person (for example, it may be easier to describe a child as bad than to address problems within the family environment that might lead to bad behaviour, or perhaps they are afraid they are bad themselves and the anxiety this brings about is lessened by labelling someone else as worse). That is why family therapy is often so successful.

I feel Sad for your niece. She's still just a baby.

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NayFindus · 05/08/2013 04:31

Completely agree with endoftheday. Early torment makes torment easily felt.

What's happening OP? Your niece sounds like she is suffering badly. I hope your family are getting help.

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Kiwiinkits · 05/08/2013 10:15

Apileofballyhoo, what a great article you posted. Really useful.

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devilinside · 05/08/2013 10:54

I agree with Anna, although I would describe it as being low in empathy, rather than born bad. My dad is low in empathy and will not do anything for anyone unless there is something in it for him. He had a normal, happy childhood.

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