I am amazed at his large capacity for spite and general unkindness. He's 6.

[WinkyWinkola]

My ds1 has always been tricky. Since the age of 2, he's raged constantly. Defiant, contrary, violent. Generally unpleasant.

We've had him referred to a paediatrician via the g.p. who could find nothing wrong. I tried to get him referred to CAMBHS (I think it's called) but they said they wouldn't see a young child who hasn't been diagnosed with anything specific. Nobody can help. He's on a waiting list for some therapy now. Has been for 9 months.

At school he's an angel. Great reports - he's docile, obliging, diligent, intelligent.

But at home. My god. He's the meanest, most spiteful boy you can imagine. If there's is anything he can do to upset his sister and his little brother, he will do it. I often spy on them in the front to make sure that I'm not judging this wrongly and he is unbelievable. Taking toys away for no reason, refusing to share, give back toys that don't belong to him or are of no interest to him, pushing, taunting.

He'll constantly and deliberately do stuff we've asked him not to do like drumming on the table at meal times, saying rude words he's picked up. He does defiant stuff with a smile on his face.

When he's out on play dates (he has very few friends so this doesn't happen often), the atmosphere in the house is so different. It's like we all breathe a sigh of relief and just rub along nicely. As soon as he's back, we all walk on egg shells again. I guess that's becoming chicken and egg.

I'm afraid I find it galling when I read his reports and see him getting certificates for good work and behaviour when I know how vile he is at home. I feel hypocritical cheering him on in assemblies when that morning, I've had to take away one of his bionicles for being utterly vile to one of his siblings or for deliberately weeing in the corner of his room.

Right now he's on his bed indefinitely. I told him off in the car because he took his sister's best cuddly toy and threw it out of her reach, just to piss her off again and make her cry. She's 4. In response to my telling him off, he threw his water bottle out of the window, nearly hitting a woman walking along the pavement. Great.

I really don't like him. He's spiteful. Unkind. Ungenerous to a startling level. Massively attention seeking by doing and saying things that he knows are not allowed. In short, I think he's a total prat. And I really look forward to the day when he is 18 and I can send him off out to university and never have to ask him 5,000 times to get dressed again as he smirks and spreads his bottom cheeks in his sister's face in response.

I know I sound extreme - I've said it, I'm wishing time away being his parent - but I'm just so very tired of this child and the constant dramas and issues he brings every single day. It's like he thrives on conflict and seeks to create scenes and problems at every opportunity. I'm very worried he's teaching my other dcs how to behave and they too will think being mean, unkind and ungenerous is the way forward.

I feel helpless and worn down and feel like I cannot win and make this boy a better person by explaining, showing, rewarding or punishing. He is who he is and it's really not a good thing.

Dh feels exactly the same but because he's at work, he only sees it at the weekends really but come Monday, he is so glad to get out of the door.

[KurriKurri]

I feel very sorry for you, you sound very down and things are clearly difficult for you at the moment. I used to work with some fairly difficult children and I can give you a couple of tips on how I approached difficult behaviour. (you may well have tried them already,but just in case )

I started every day afresh, bad behaviour the day before was dealt with at the time then put away, each day the child had an equal chance to be good as anyone else. Its easy for a child to acquire so much 'previous' that they can't get away from their reputation.

Give attention for good behaviour, praise for kindness, playing nicely, doing a helpful thing, - be specific 'that was kind of you to help put the lego away etc.' Give him some character words - kind, helpful, gentle, polite etc. so he can build a picture of himself as a good boy, with good qualities.

Give responsibility, he's the oldest, he can have some special jobs, not horrible things but something he might enjoy that he can do because he's a big boy. I used to get one of my difficult boys to take orders for snacks and report back to me what everyone wanted - he loved it.

And with the little jobs comes a little reward (10 mins. later bedtime or something like that, again because he's older) Try to make being the oldest something which has good points.

AS far as possible ignore bad behaviour, try not to to be drawn into debates an arguments. If possible just remove things he is throwing about, and if he's being vile to another child remove that child and do something with them elsewhere, I know its hard to do, and very frustrating, but any kind of attention for naughtiness is a reward. If he wants attention he can get it by being good.

Is there any way of spending more one to one time with him, even if its just going for a walk together (either you or your DH). What's he interested in?, can you initiate chats about his favourite topics?

I sympathise enormously, it is terribly hard in this situation, - I grew up with a very angry older sister, - I was scared of her and so was my other sister. we don't have a brilliant relationship with her now, I know my parents despaired, they did send her to boarding school. I don't really think it solved anything, I wish things could have been different.

I think it says a lot about you as a mum that you are asking for advice and you want to sort this out. Good luck

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

And children can often be incredibly unkind and spiteful. I am often open mouthed at mine and others too.

Take heart, op. You need to rant on here but you also need to think about some r+r for you and some time alone with your ds.

[Chandon]

He behaves "ok" at school, but still is different from other children in that he requires to know exactly what will happen next. Also, he doesn't have many friends you say. So he is functioning o.k., but something is up.

I have two friends with "impossible " boys, also aged 6. One was diagnosed with pathological demand avoidance (is on the autism spectrum). Another with Aspergers.

I am not saying that your son has either of these conditions.

I am saying that something is up, and you should have him assessed properly. privately AND at school (school bureaucracy takes ages) if you can.

My friends who had their children diagnosed officially were gutted, but it has helped them to move forward and deal with the respective conditions adequately. It was also a "relief" that the boys' behaviour wasn't their fault.

By being this honest on a forum, you'll get some tough replies, and that might not help you or your DS.

Please start to get a professional (maybe starting point GP, if that leads to nothing, try finding out about a GP who understands about these things (many GPs don't).

Good luck.

[orangehead]

I have not read all the thread, sorry I know that not good but only have a few minutes. Sounds like you may benefit from webster stratton course. They are free probably your hv would be the best person to find out if any local to you.
It really sounds like he is desperate for your attention and is in real need of one on one time with you. Which is understandably hard to spend one on one time when you feel so angry with him, but just spending 5-10 mins one on one time with him daily will make a difference. Also perhaps as a reward he can work towards is a trip out just the two of you it doesnt have to be expensive it could be just to the park or something or going to a cafe for a drink and cake but just the two of you. make the reward for something specific not just generally being good and make it something acheivable for him.
I highly recommend the course though, please look into it.

[didldidi]

Thanks KurriKurri I found that helpful and hope you do Winky.

[WinkyWinkola]

Erm, I don't really punish him for weeing on his bed or on the floor. I find it really shocking so I kind of leave the room to gather myself and then return to tidy up when I'm less upset.

I ask him why he's done it and he says because he's so angry. This happens every fortnight or so. I also find areas that he's wee'd on that I've not been aware of like a beanbag.

And I just put him on his bed because I find that with his red mist there is no getting through to him. He'll come down when he's calm and ready to talk about it and say sorry.

I'm very affectionate with him and I am delighted he does so well at school and I show it to him by framing his certificates and praising him. I'm just at a loss as to how to make things better, positive for him in his mind. I tell him he's special because he's my first born, my oldest boy, my champion etc. He likes it but it's still so hard.

I find everyone I turn to very sympathetic but unable to help really. My midwife at the birth of ds2 said she knows a lot of families where the first born seems to be really angry and troubled. She said it seems to have accelerated over the last five years in her experience.

Can I ask for family therapy via the gp then?

(My mum is visiting, playing with the dcs at the moment in case anyone is wondering how come I can be on here so long!)

[giyadas]

I would make him clean it up, his bad behaviour should end up inconveniencing him rather than you. I don't really agree with ignoring the bad behaviour, urinating on the beds can't really be ignored.
I really feel for you, you sound ground down by it.

[MrsPresley]

Your DS sounds very much lie my grandson (almost 11) and I really feel for all of you

My daughter has a terrible time with her DS. She has asked and got loads of help over the years (but really had to fight for it) but to be honest if things are not going his way then he kicks off, runs away has been brought home by the police on numerous occasions, tried to strangle his sister, I could go on an on about his behaviour and he's also disruptive at school, gets into fights etc

He has been seen by various pycologists (sp), social workers doctors etc

My daughter even done a 16 week parenting course and stuck to all the advice religiously. I must admit, some of it did work but not all of it.

She now spends 15 minutes a day (no matter how busy/tired she is) giving her son 1 to 1 attention (advice from the parenting course)

It might just be sitting in the kitchen having a cup of tea and a chat or a walk to shops but there has been an improvement.

She sticks to any punishment she hands out, like if she says he's not getting his games console for a week, she will never give in after 5/6 days.

She does charts etc with a small treat at the end of the week, she used to do his charts daily, just so he could earn an occasional treat as he just couldnt go a week without kicking off.

You really have to be very strict with my grandson and dont give in no matter what.

My daughter also has 4 other children all younger than him and funny enough he starts on the one directly below him (by 1.5 years) but is very protective of the other 3 who are 3 and under.

[ChickensHaveNoEyebrows]

Winky, my DS2 was like this. The child ruled our home for the first 5 years of his life. I loved him fiercely, but sometimes I could have sold him for a tenner. His behaviour was also impeccable at school. He was assessed by a paediatrician and a psychologist. Turns out, he was frustrated. He is a bright child and always wanted to be ahead of his physical capabilities. But also, you know, he is just a contrary little bugger . He is easier now to manage, but it took years of hard work on our part. If you give him a firm boundary, he has to test it from all angles before he'll accept it. My advice to you is to have firm boundaries and consequences. And follow them through. No matter what drama he throws your way, stay calm. Just keep repeating the behaviour you want, and the consequences if he doesn't comply. Even if it kills you not to shout or scream, do not do it. Negative attention is like oxygen to the more 'spirited' child. It just fans the flames. The boundaries are important, though, because at heart my DS is an insecure little boy. They help him feel safe and in control. Do you think your son might be insecure? Is he sensitive? Does he find new situations frightening? My DS hates change and his anxiety often boils over in to truly horrendous tantrums. As he's got older, he is more able to control himself, or at least explain himself more appropriately.

[Miggsie]

winky it might be worth seeking out an ABA therapist.
ABA is Applied Behaviour Analysis.
The fact that your child can manifest two very different behaviours in different environments suggests there is some sort of reinforcement/reward at school that he doesn't see at home and he is capable of behaving well, but at home it doesn't seem as though he thinks it is worth it.
An ABA therapist will analyse root causes of behaviour and seek modification techniques that work for your son.

[wigglybeezer]

I think some children are just not temperamentally suited to being children (which they ironically protest about in very childish ways).

Starting High School seems to have been a turning point for DS1, he has more independence and autonomy and has started to gain some control over his emotions.

DS1 has always been much easier one on one too.

Be careful that burnout doesn't lead to depression, I got depressed and probably should have sought help but struggled on (better now).

Try to use as much humour as you can.

Keep him busy. It really made a big difference to us when DS1 started athletics training two x two hours a week. I was able to pay attention to his siblings and then be kind to him when he got in (hot chocolate etc.) as I had had a break.

[Vicksx3]

I really feel for you being in the same situation myself, however you all need to get some help.

His behaviour sounds like a mixture of sensory (drumming, needing to take things) as well as other conditions.

My daughter is 9½ and for a time I felt I really didn't like her, she has the most amazing school reports and is talented, however at home she turned into another child, for her it is very common traits of ADHD and Aspergers, plus she also has attachment issues We are awaiting formal diagnosis.

Do not lose heart I have been fighting for her since she was 18 months old and I realised her behaviour wasnt right, there have been times when I wished her childhood away. However, I have learnt that it is not the child who is at fault, it is the way in which we deal with these different children. I am slowly learning strategies and she has been away on holiday this week and I am really missing her :)

I had her assessed by an independent Occupational therapist as I knew that this behaviour was not normal. All children can be rude, aggressive etc from time to time but this was different.

I urge you to go back to your GP and get help for all of you, and I would also suggest some family therapy to strengthen those bonds between you which may be starting to fall away.

Good luck

[WinkyWinkola]

Oh my. I'm so sorry to hear there are many others in similar situations.

Thank you very much for all your valuable advice and reccOmendations. I will reread thread now and draw out concrete steps I can take.

On a positive note, ds1 and I just had lovely story time. He's tucked up now listening to his second favourite story. Tomorrow is another day.

Thank you for your support. I feel so much better now I feel we have options and positive approaches. Much appreciated.

[Vicksx3]

Winky do what Maryz says, this week for the first time ever I've realised how lovely my little girl really is. Please let us know how you get on.

A really good book which might give you some insight is called the explosive child by Ross W Green, I picked it up for a few pounds and its a fantastic boook, one to keep and refer but one I think you will really relate to.

[thisisyesterday]

hi winky, I've only skimmed the thread, but I can see some people have already suggested some good things to you.

ds1 has aspergers, and is also 6.

I can't say he is quite as extreme behaviour-wise as your son, but a couple of things stood out.

a LOT of people said to me there was nothing wrong with him because he was fine at school.
wrong. it's actually fairly common for children with ASD (and other things) so behave OK at school because they NEED that routine and because it's easier for them to behave there... ie, if all the other children are queuing up to go to lunch then they know they have to, and they also know that the punishment for not doing it can be harsh. peer pressure is a wonderful thing!

The problem is that it makes them incredibly stressed keeping themselves in check all day.
It's very hard work.
And it means as soon as they are in your care, the person they know they are safe with... they let it all out. DS1 generally runs out of school, throws (literally) his bag at me and quite often tantrums all the way home.

He can also be very unkind to his siblings and very spiteful to others. This is often worse when he is feeling anxious or stressed and I think is partly a way of gaining some control back

Anyway, I just wanted to post really to let you know that you should feel very confident about going back to the GP and insisting on a referral to the community paediatricians. Write down all the things that are worrying you about his behaviour, otherwise you're bound to forget a lot. Include any other "odd" behaviours you've noticed... they may not be bad behaviour, just things you think are maybe a bit unusual.
It can be hard to get the right treatment,and you may have to fight... but you can do it.

as an aside, we were told that CAMHS don't deal with things like ASD and that their criteria (here anyway, w.sussex) for referrals is very strict and we wouldn't meet it because it wasn't a mental health issue.
This may vary from place to place though, I don't know... in our case it was definitely the paediatricians that did the assessment and diagnosis

[didldidi]

A lot of people mentioning ASD traits here which do seem very similar...my ds hums when he eats - every time. Should we be concerned?

[CaptainNancy]

Thank you to all contributors for a really interesting and helpful thread.

[Conundrumish]

I have only read the first three posts, but I feel extremely sorry for your child. You sound vile to be honest. Assuming you have a fully functioning intellect, think about what he might be trying to communicate to you by his bad behaviour and what you might do to help him.

[Conundrumish]

Sorry, that was harsh and I have read the rest of the thread. I do think that you need to find some professional help soon though