should grandchild be a "treat" on grandmother's birthday?

[MamaLaMoo]

I have thought long and hard about posting this and how to explain it. I am not sure if I am being a touch sensitive as relations with MIL are always civil but painfully (for me anyway) lacking in real emotional connection. I find her very hard going, sadly DH frequently does to. Anyway...

I am uncomfortable with my MIL stated suggestion for what she wants to do on her birthday. She wants to take DD aged 2 off for the afternoon possibly with SIL and presumably go into town, have lunch, eat ice cream, the details of this are missing. She and SIL have discussed this together and this was presented a fortnight ago as the thing they would do on the birthday day (a Saturday) which my husband is unable to attend as he is going to a wedding, children not invited. I am not going to the wedding as I had assumed I would look after DD and will be a couple of weeks off giving birth to DD2. I was not asked at any stage what I would be doing or think of any of this. I was not actually spoken to about it either, it was spoken to my husband with me present, most conversation with MIL happens like this. The ideas was mooted as a way of "helping me out" when DH was at wedding.

This is categorically not about helping me out, the birthday is in 8 weeks time and I am crippled with PGP right now. If she wanted to help she could visit this week and do a bit of shopping and vacuum the house. That is a sugar coating on what is a request for DD to be with her for the day as her birthday treat. MIL has suggested nothing else, no dinner in a nice restaurant, no trip out nothing else to do on her birthday or the day after when we can all attend. It is also clear from request that I am not invited to this afternoon out.

I feel instinctively that there is something wrong about having a little child be the sole treat for a grown up's birthday. What if she is feeling poorly or is a bit confused by grandma taking her off for the day/afternoon without mummy and gets ratty and upset? There is great deal of expectation being placed on her little head here to basically perform and give grandma a nice time. I feel she is not being seen as a little person in her own right, more as an emotional fix for MIL. And why am I not included?

Does this seem normal or am I seeing a demon MIL where none exists?

[Gonzo33]

I think you are doing the right thing letting her have your DD for the morning/afternoon/day. I understand your difficulties. I have a MIL who is very similar, in fact I could almost have written this myself. It is a very difficult situation to work around without her and your husband having some kind of counselling.

All I can offer is a (((HUG))).

[HansieMom]

I don't think you should allow MIL to be in charge of DD because the lady sounds deranged.

[ChippingIn]

Good for you - you needed to get constructively angry!

[needanewname]

Good for you.

I like how you have presented it in a calm manner, if you do show this to your DH he will see that you are both serious and rational and that it is his mother (and the wider family) who are being totally unrational and unreasonable.

Good luck and let us knwo how it goes.

[MamaLaMoo]

Right then, a plan of action.

I think I need to separate the way the request for time with DD was put from the request itself. It is reasonable for a grandmother to offer to take a grandchild out for an afternoon even if she is only 2. Provided I know where they go, when they're back and what they are doing.

The way it was put, this persistent tendency to talk around me in my presence and the other issues regarding rudeness from MIL will be addressed in a firm but polite way in future. I will not have her be rude to me in front of my DD, nor do I want her to start similar dysfunctional ways of relating to her. Fear of nameless terror that will befall if MIL is ever confronted is DH problem, he has the fear and should address it himself. I would like him to discuss it with someone trained in family relationships but I doubt we have the time or money with a new baby due soon. This is a longer term issue I suspect.

However Octaviapink"s comments are pertinent, MIL has only two people she talks to or socialises with, DH and SIL. DH has expressed concern in the past that MIL may become obsessive regarding DD. MIL has a tendency to adopting a project to fill her life, sadly usually destructive court cases, endless complaints to companies etc etc, and he has been watching out to make sure DD doesn't become one (for example we mentioned in passing that she liked jigsaws, MIL presented us with 13 that she had spent a month tracking down in charity shops). I don't think it is normal for a 65 year old to have nothing at all that they can suggest for an activity on their birthday other than seeing grandchild without her mother, she didn't ask to see DH and SIL you understand, just DD. It's not as if we restrict access to DD anyway, MIL can see her whenever she wants.

Nor do I think it is normal to have the extended family fretting 3 months in advance about how they can best accommodate her wishes. In contrast my parents have birthday discussions which take place a week or two in advance and are simple "what you doing on your birthday?" "going out to dinner with X" "OK see you the day after?" "lovely, see you then". Done. It is not just birthdays, Christmas negotiations start from August, every family get together is coordinated to suite her needs to avoid FIL (her ex), to avoid my family so she gets exclusive time with DD, to provide her with suitable food, to be on a convenient day etc. This is controlling, prima-donna behaviour. I just don't want to cooperate with this demanding, emotionally immature person. She can't dictate terms for when and how she sees my beautiful daughter, she can sod off.

Rant over.

[Octaviapink]

There's a difference between wanting to spend time with someone and using them as a crutch.

[matana]

At least you have a MIL who wants to spend time with your LO. My DS is 6 and a half months old and has met his grandma and grandad once, despite our best efforts. I would just think it nice that your MIL loves your LO so much she wants to spend her birthday with her. If your DD is in a bad mood or whatever your MIL will have to deal with it - at least you won't have to!

[Octaviapink]

I disagree with those who say you're overthinking it. My MIL has a similarly possessive attitude towards my daughter who's also 2 (poor DS doesn't get a look in) and it REALLY gets my back up. When MIL is here DD doesn't get a moment to herself, and she's actually quite a private person - likes playing in her room and having space to make up games, but MIL is in her face the entire time and DD gets frantic. I end up trying to distract MIL rather than my toddler! She's here every six weeks and would be here every weekend if I let her. I think she's bored, basically, because she's certainly not this interested in her own children. I wouldn't mind so much but the only things she can think of to do with DD are shopping and feeding her biscuits. We were out to lunch a few months ago and she was feeding DD sugar lumps out of the bowl while I was in the loo.

All of which is a long way of saying I think you need to stand your ground a bit. If your MIL wants to take DD out for the afternoon, it has to be for a limited time (back by 4pm, say) and you have to know exactly what they're doing. I agree that it's pathetic someone should be reliant on a two year old to give them a good time, but I think you just need to pity the emotional neediness while still making the stipulations that will make you comfortable with it.

[frazzzled]

IMHO you are lucky to have the help, a break before arrival of new baby sounds lovely, book in for a pregnancy massage that day and relax! Try not to over think things, majority of relations with In laws (mostly dh side) are fraught! I've come to accept, like pp has said can't change them but can change how to react and behave. Sometimes just not worth the energy, knackered enough as it is! Take care

[needanewname]

Agreed that you will not change your MIL but if you don;t stand up to her what are you showing your children?

[Playdohinthewashingmachine]

Concentrate on your dd. Much much easier to get this sorted out now than when your children are older and having some kind of relationship, however horrendous, with your MIL. Stir up that hornet's nest now! Don't wait ten years till you can't take it any more and do it then ...

Let's face it, your MIL already does regard you as Awful DIL, doesn't she?

[Playdohinthewashingmachine]

Ah. The reason you would pick your MIL up on her behaviour is not to change her. Your SIL is entirely right, it is likely she won't change. The reason you would do it, is for your benefit. So you and your dh remember that MIL is being outrageous and you don't have to take it.

You can't change her but you can change the way you react to her.

You would also do it for your children's sake. Otherwise they will grow up thinking it is ok to behave as your MIL does.

Get your Dh to counselling. I've had all of 8 sessions about my mother, and it's made the world of difference already. Last session I talked through my fear of the nameless bad thing that will happen if I allow my dcs to "show off", and I've realised there is no nameless bad thing. Walking on air all week.

I do understand your desire not to confront her though. I'm like your dh - brought up not to rock the boat. So I'm just not seeing my mother at the mo (which is very very nice!).

[MamaLaMoo]

Flisspaps - good idea, I can see the merit in what you say

Playdough and ChippingIn - yes we do need to jump on this more consistently. I have had some long chats with DH about a related topic, MIL makes digs at me as an aside to the general conversation then seamlessly goes on to talk about something else and it takes a few seconds to register fully what she said, by which time the moment has passed. He is supportive of me and would take my side if any major fallout occurred and has said as much.

He has been raised by this woman, as has his sister, to never show confrontation or anger. That way she is never faced with anyone standing up to her. Their father, my DFIL (he is lovely) just retreated into himself and finally ended up so depressed MIL left him. He is much better now! DH even finds it hard when I express anger, in a completely appropriate way I must add, just a raised voice and more animated hand gestures in reaction to some event puts him really on edge. He is sufficiently self aware to be able to talk it through though.

He is worried something, some nameless, ill-defined very bad thing, will happen if MIL is confronted. He has told me how he and his sister were a bit trying one day as kids and his mum just screamed at them, sat down and necked G+Ts for the rest of the afternoon till their father came home. They were never "trying" again. She lives alone and has no friends or social circle at all where she lives and hasn't done for the 6 years since she left FIL. There are only two people she talks to, DH and SIL. She has completely fallen out with one of her sisters and is in occasional contact with the other. She is totally emotionally dependent on her children. This fear of some terrible consequence keeps them all repeating the same pattern. SIL has said in her opinion MIL will never change even if confronted, DH has discussed it with her, and so we shouldn't bother trying.

And I am guilty of being too polite. I so do not want to be cast as the evil DIL who stirred up the hornets nest. But as I have said to DH, if she starts speaking to DDs like this I will not hold back, and DD1 will soon be at an age to understand MIL is being rude to me. I come from a very blunt speaking, emotionally expressive and loving Irish family who could not be more different. But as poor, irish immigrants in the 50s my mother's family adopted a shut up and fit in policy and has possibly viewed the English middle-class as their betters. What I mean is we were raised to be too deferential and polite outside the family.

[ChippingIn]

mamalamoo (did you choose this name for this thread?)

There are so many things going on here it's hard to know where to start!

Short reply -

• DH needs to man up and stand up for you and not allow his Mother to sideline you, if he wants to stay happily married. The first time she sidelined you at the train station you should have told your DH if he ever allowed her to do that again, it would be the end of your relationship.... but of course you can't go backwards. You can, however, tell him now that he needs to man up.
  
  
• You need to stand up for yourself with her. Don't allow her to talk 'around you'. Simply say, 'I am here you know' and 'Please don't presume to know what I would like' - thank you :) '
  
  
• Your DD is your DD. Don't allow her to write you out of the picture.
  
  
• She is never going to be your 'other Mum' stop waiting for her to treat you as another daughter, she clearly doesn't want to (and that is very much her loss!). She doesn't want to invite you along to her birthday because you are the evil cow who stole her son and she isn't embracing having a DIL.
  
  Have a think about whether DD will enjoy the day with her Grandma & Aunty - if she will, let her go for HER sake and you put your feet up for the day BUT if you think DD will be upset then say 'No, she' doesn't know you well enough to spend a day with you just yet, you need to see her more often and form a better bond with her first'. End of. Your DD, your decision.
  
  At 2, she's really a bit young to understand what your MIL is bleeting on about with regard to the baby, it's all still a bit of an abstract thing for her just now, so don't worry too much about that. But it's something that needs stomping on when you are around for sure.

[Playdohinthewashingmachine]

Sounds like you need to say "no thankyou, that's not convenient". If she persists that she is trying to help you, explain that your are enjoying your dd's company but having trouble with housework, and ask her to come and do the hoovering.

I'd start picking her up on every bit of rudeness. Be explicit. "When you talk about me to dh and don't look at me, I feel ignored. Please look at me when we are talking". It will probably feel rude/disrespectful to confront her like that, but you have to remember that her behaviour is appalling and needs to stop.

Or the old favourite "that sounded rude, MIL. Did you mean to be rude?".

Your MIL needs to realise that you are part of their family, you are as important and should be as valued as your dd or your dh. If she is not going to treat you like a human being worthy of love and respect, then she really shouldn't expect to spend much time with your dh, your dd, and you.

And your dh needs to refuse to allow the behind-your-back conversations. All he has to do is say "Mum, could you talk to MamaLaMoo about this please" followed by "no, I'm not talking about this, you need to talk to MamaLaMoo".

And actually, people who get upset with you by ignoring you for 2 weeks are great. Much better than the ones who want to yell at you or cry on you for hours ...

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

Ooh, hang on a minute, just seen that your dd is only 2 and that the SIL is included. How is that working then? Maybe Fliss is right...

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

I would try to see it as a day out as well. However, I can understand exactly why you feel like you do and you are probably right. She does sound witchy and downright bloody rude. But I'm not sure there's too much you can do about it if your DH doesn't see a problem. The main thing is, will your DD have a nice time?

[needanewname]

Good idea Fliss!

[needanewname]

OK with a bit of back story I can see why you;re upset, but honestly she behaves like this beacsue the whole family allows her to.

She doesn;t sound like a nice and supportive MIL, you need to speak to DH about this as calmly and unemotionally as you have done here and let him know that next time she speaks to you through someone else that she shoudl speak to you directly.

This is not going toget any better whilst everyone allows it to continue. Sorry there is no magic wand to turn her into a great MIL, but I can understand your need to rant, so rant away!

[Flisspaps]

With the background comments you've given, I wouldn't be happy to let a two year old go with her for the day.

The other option is for you to say to MIL 'what a lovely idea, where are we going?' and take yourself along too - MIL gets to see DD and you get to make sure that she's not telling DD that you're sending her away because of the new baby (or anything along those lines)

[MamaLaMoo]

EssexGurl - I guess I feel that when discussing this in front of me with DH over a meal as she did, she could at least have turned her head and made eye contact with me and included me in the conversation instead of talking around me and referring to me as if I weren't there. That is just rude.

Of course DH has a say, but DH is not going to be there! So any arrangements about when they arrive, where they go etc need to be communicated to me not him. He will be 100s miles away in Wales at a wedding. Most couples do not have the sort of relationship where one presents a fait acompli to the other regarding some arrangement with their kids.


it appears MIL and SIL have been discussing this for a while and then told DH, I resent the way they all talk around me. Like I said in the OP, why am I never included?

[EssexGurl]

My parents definitely see having their grandchildren to visit/stay as a huge treat. I think my mum would love to have them on her birthday. You are over thinking it. Also, not sure why MIL needs to talk to you as well as DH about plans. He is the father and so surely has a say in plans.

[MmeLindor.]

Ok, she sounds like a nasty piece of work and I can understand your hesitation.

At the end of the day though, an afternoon with her will not harm your DD and will give you a chance to put your feet up.

Try not to see it as anything other than MIL taking your DD our for the afternoon on her birthday.

[usualsuspect]

I think it sounds like a lovely idea

Your MIL is your dds grandma after all ,not a stranger

[MamaLaMoo]

thank you for you postings, to give a bit of background...

MIL never speaks to me directly, she says things like "would mummy let you have a biscuit?" to my DD rather than ask me directly. She also speaks about me in general conversation "[my name] will want such and such..." having never actually asked me what I want at all. Her response to finding out I had PGP was "there won't be any more children after this one then" said to my husband, she said nothing to me and offered no help which is not out of character as she has never offered any help. She has never taken DD out, and babysat her once in her own house, where we were staying, for 2 hours when DH and I went to see a film.

I had originally taken her suggestion at face value and tried to explain to her that she shouldn't shape her birthday plans around assisting me (if I actually needed it which I could hardly tell 8 weeks ahead of time) as I could call on my own mum for that if necessary. I felt uncomfortable that she thought she couldn't do what she wanted on her birthday with her own daughter and was planning things around me. Like I said this woman has never shown concern for me in this way before. After discussing with DH he thinks she is actually angling for afternoon with DD but dressing it up as help rather than asking directly.

She has a very indirect way of communicating even with her own children expecting them to mind read her and then getting upset if they don't, but of course she doesn't say she is upset, she does passive aggressive things like not answer her phone for 2 weeks.

MIL has spoken about arrival of DD2 in very negative tones in front of DD1, referring to dangerous levels of sibling jealousy and asking if we were going to put DD1 in nursery after DD2 arrived. I don't want her to tell DD1 that grandma is taking her away from mummy because mummy needs time away from her (DD1) before baby arrives etc and I also want the time before baby is born to spend with DD1, we won't have that special time when the baby is there. So it is very presumptuous of her to plan this and assume I will just go along with it.

The first time I ever met her was 1 year after DH and I started dating, we got the train (long journey) down to where she lives. She met us at the platform, ignored me, linked her arm through her sons turned away and walked down the platform chatting animatedly to him. I was so shocked she could have slapped me and it wouldn't have been any worse. It was only on the 4th time I met her she actually said hello to me as well as DH when she arrived. I did not set out to see her as the enemy.