Little Italy 25

[Rosa]

Greetings, Ciao , Welcome , Benvenuto

[Sputnik]

Now now Franca I thought you promised not to get into fights on facebook again.
Ok this is probably irrelevant but just trying to cheer everyone up a bit: you know what makes me proud to live here... just realised it was nearly 10 years ago, 4 million Italians took to the streets of Rome to protest the Gulf War, everyone from nuns waving from the convent windows to the old communist couple with their homemade banner. I was thinking about this because DD has a Guiness book of records and it's in there as the largest peace rally ever.
(not that it made the slightest difference)

[MerlinScot]

Sputnik, it is funny to hear you say that you are proud about that.. I probably didn't care at all at that time and deemed the protesters as wackos :/

I don't think there is a strong opposition to EU in UK, as it is in Italy. Then the British opposition is united in only one party, UKIP, and it didn't get the same percentage of votes as MS5.
By the way, I live in Scotland, where UKIP didn't get even one vote lol and Salmond is actually playing the EU card to get more voters to say yes to the independence, Scots are mainly pro-Union. The problem is that his plan backfired slightly when he told everybody Scotland had to join the Euro coin in case of independence and that brought the support to the yes vote down to 35%... SNP has still to recover from that blow (then Salmond appeared on the cover of the Scotsman and a huge title over him "LIAR" - lol).

Franca, it is not worth it to engage in fights with Grillo fans on Facebook... Yes, his economic programme shows how detached from reality his party is... I was reading he wants to give the Italians the reddito di cittadinanza... And where does he think to get the money from? He is drunk lol

[MerlinScot]

By the way, Grillo was on BBC and the video is online, if someone is interested...

[Sputnik]

Wacko and proud :o As I say it didn't make any difference but it was incredible to see so many different types of people united.

Re the EU I think politics is quite a bit different in Scotland, I see the tendency in the UK govt as wanting to opt out of this or that aspect of Europe as they see fit, and that washes down.

[BananaGio]

You are right Sput, that makes me proud too. There is so much that is good here. I guess there is an argument to say that there are positives in such a large percentage of the voters having the desire for change and using a protest vote to make that known. And if this doesnt wake PD up then i dont know what will. So that could be a good outcome? Or am I overly channelling Pollyanna here .
Re the uk i disagree re the anti EU feeling. I think Scotland has a very different outlook ( have a scottish father so have always been exposed to Scottish politics, newspapers, tv etc). I think Scotland is pro EU and I think England by nature is more inward looking/US focused / suspicious of Europe etc. The Tories have always offered a haven for the anti europeans before and I think its only because the anti feeling is getting stronger that natural Tory voters have defected to ukip because they want more action than just a general grumbling about the "continent" hence Camerons recent bribery re referendum.

[Francagoestohollywood]

Oh, I didn't know that that was the biggest peace rally ever ! But I remember that many, may buildings had those "peace" flags for months, and I loved it. Have to say that we (italians) used to be quite good at rallies.

I used to find that there as lots of anti european sentiment in the UK (lots of anti european posters on here too), despite the amount of £££ made in the City with Euros . Italy used to be very pro Euro. Not anympre, lots of people seem to blame everything on Europe and the Euro. Shame that, ehm, no, we aren't poorer because of that.

[Francagoestohollywood]

Sput, I can't help it, I love a good fight debate on fb

[MerlinScot]

BananaGio, where do you find all that good... Might be a personal experience. When I go back home I usually get depressed, I don't see anything good at all!!
And my mum lives in Tuscany, in a less poor area if compared to southern regions. Here in Scotland, Italian community isn't very big but all of them shrug their shoulders when you ask them if they will go back to Italy. The general feeling is that they would like to go back but they just don't like what Italy became.
For many of us, what we bought was... Something that became a one way ticket.

Following personal experience, I don't see myself ever going back because women are treated as dead zombies on the job market after they become older than 35. And given that I didn't score a permanent job opportunity before that age, I guess the trip to Uk (or Australia or wherever) was no-return from the start (I left at 37).

Franca, that is a bad temptation that I usually resist... I am following 4 threads on fb at the moment, but I was good, refrained to comment :D

[MerlinScot]

Franca, Italians were good at rallies in the 1970s, sindacati and Co. used to move masses... And that worked...
I remember that when there was a strike in the late 90s, the majority of people stayed at work... I asked once my boss if we could join the strike and the answer was " if you want your contract re-newed, stay in". So much for a democratic country.

I am pretty sure that if there was a referendum to stay in the EU, Italians citizens would vote the country out of it. After one year into the Euro coin people were already cursing the day Italy had joined it.

Grillo exploited that issue for his own interests... But there is a great unrest about Europe.. Never understood that, it seems they believe Merkel is to blame more than Mr. B.

[BananaGio]

Good and bad everywhere I guess though Merlin. There are plenty of things that I find frustrating beyond belief here but so many of the key things in my life I find better here. For example my ds has 18 in his class instead of the 30 that they average at the primary school my sister teaches at in the UK. OK the resources are very basic and we have to buy books and materials but I would rather have basic resources we can add to and a smaller class if I have to choose. I think the health service here, bad as it can be and as much as it is suffering from the cuts is superior to the UK one, at least in terms of preventative treatment. Weather is also of major importance to me. All those years growing up in the soggy north west dreaming of sun that lasted for more than 3 days at a time means apart from when I start my annual "but its too hot" whining during July the climate here is of major importance to me. It massively improves my quality of life I think. And then there is my other love - food . I miss my fruttivendolo when I go back to the UK and his narrow choice of whatever he has bought in from his farm fuori Roma that morning. The quality is soooo good. I am lucky in the sense I freelance at home so I dont have to fight the job crap externally. And now with communications as they are with skype and facetime etc plus my ipad letting me watch UK TV it is a different world from when I first came over in the 90's when I couldnt afford to buy the UK papers more than once a week and calls home were a 10000 lire phone card which lasted 10 mins once a week.
Phew this has turned into a bit of an essay but think I needed to remind myself after this week of the reasons why, Mediaset programmes and their orange owner aside, I do love it here.

[MerlinScot]

Well BananaGio, maybe the difference, in my case or yours are not really examples of what it is good or bad in a country.
Meaning that you chose to move to Italy and I chose to move to Uk so we got what we were looking for.

But you mentioned something very important in your 'essay' (lol), you don't have to scrap a living out of a precariato, year after year. That consumes you and your life, and it is never paid back by any sunshine or fruttivendolo or buon cibo I can get. To be honest, I don't work in Uk but because I chose to (at least during the last two years). In Italy I never could choose to stay home and when it was materially impossible to find a job, I had to sell everything I had built in 10 years (house, car, even clothes) before spending all the money. What I had saved was spent for a new life elsewhere.
It is hard to stay far from your family all year around, Italians are usually close to their family and relatives, but I think my mum is very happy that her daughter is not a burden on her shoulders anymore and above all I don't feel the frustration anymore to have worked for 23 years for nothing.
At least here I have a future (psst I needed to remind myself this too, or I get depressed looking at the glum landscape, no sun today!).

[MerlinScot]

Need to add something, where were you living in Uk? The area, I mean...

Because here we have several vans dropping by, from library services to the fishmonger.. Woah I might have discovered something good about Scotland again :)

[Rosa]

Well politics apart my case has arrived ....16 days ..And when I have calmed down I will tell you whats missing !!!!

[MerlinScot]

Rosa, you mean something is missing??? ;(

Oh and I had dropped by because I had good news... dh got two job interviews next week :) I am crossing fingers he will get one of the twos

[Francagoestohollywood]

Rosa at last! but what's missing?

I agree that we aren't really good examples of deciding where it's best to live... a precario in Italy leads the same hopeless life as those people in those poverty programs on bbc3 and actually probably a marginally better life, given that we are 15 yrs late and still have the comforts of a more structured family life (but I am not sure it will last).

[Francagoestohollywood]

oh fingers crossed merlin!

[MerlinScot]

Thanks Franca! We are both travelling down south next week, so we can swap driving the car. We can also have a look at the rental property there :)

Yeah, from what I could see last time I was in Italy, parents and grandparents are a bit stufi to be forced to feed their offsprings until the old age :( I wonder what will happen when the generation 50-80 isn't there anymore.......

[BananaGio]

oh no Rosa! I cant believe how crappy the airline have been. What's missing?
Merlin I was in Manchester. Agree that we are all probably not the best examples. Thats great news re the job interviews. Will have everything crossed.
Where's the bloody sun gone! It has been glorious the last few days. Am not missing the constant buzz of helicopters from the Vatican that we seemed to have over the last few weeks. Until the conclave starts and it will all kick off again!

[Sputnik]

Agree re the family here, a lot of working women here rely on the nonni for childcare, the family opposite us the nonna is always there looking after the kids, the other day the school was closed for elections and she had a bunch of other people's kids there too.

[spaghettina]

That's right about the nonni, bless them. A few of my friends back in the UK say their parents have stated outright that they're not prepared to sacrifice much free time to look after their kids while they're at work, as they have busy social/work schedules themselves.
But I'm actually very grateful to be living in a country where there is state-funded, means-tested childcare for children under the age of three, which has allowed me to work (self-employed working from home) and make it worthwhile financially. If I'd been in the UK I'd have had to resort to a private nursery or nanny, according to my friends... then again, if I was in the UK I'd probably be earning a heck of a lot more and not scrabbling to make ends meet and paying whacking great taxes on a piddling income, but that's a whole other story! :)

Banana, how do you get to watch UK tv on your iPad? (not that I have an iPad... but just curious). Can anyone help me work out how to watch stuff on iPlayer etc on my laptop? I've heard about getting a UK IP address but not sure how to go about it and am scared of messing up my PC somehow, which I need for work...

[BananaGio]

will pm you spag.
I found the materna system a life saver as well. I miss materna! DS seems to have got so grown up all of a sudden

[MerlinScot]

Spaghettina, all my friends never had a child in the asilo nido... what kind of income do you have? :shock:
Just wondering if Tuscany is the worst place ever to live in Italy!! Usually a asilo nido costs 400euros a month, so mothers are usually forced to leave the children with their nonni. If you don't have nonni, no children. I mean, it was this situation even 10-15 years ago. I don't have a friend with more than one child for example.

When I was engaged I was asked at the interviews if I had a fiance or getting married, so employers could rule me out of the job from the start.
Mind you, I always went to interviews denying I had a fiancè I bought a house with and without the engagement ring :D And I got the jobs. Tricking the probable future employers was the norm back then. I have to say in Scotland nobody ever bothered to ask, the minimum number of children women have is above 3.........

Bananagio, ouch Manchester... I can maybe get why you prefer Italy now.. Although I wouldn't live in Rome either, I don't like big cities. I lived in Paris for a long time, that was enough to last a lifetime ;)

So excited to move down south! Today weather is back to its usual self... awful!! and I officially hate 'moors' now... if I think there are Scots who want to preserve them... I might 'bacchettarli' right now.

Rosa, let us know what was missing....... ((HUGS))

[Sputnik]

I think the asili are very patchy tbh, where I lived just outside Rome when my kids were born they didn't exist. Most parts of Rome you'd be extremely lucky to get a place, I've heard of people going on the waiting list after their 3 month scan, without much expectation of getting a place.

[Francagoestohollywood]

Merlin, I used to pay 500 pounds a month to send one dc to nursery 3 times a week in the UK. I don't think that 400 euros a month is that outragious given the kind of care you have to give to the under 3. Plus here scuola materna is free.

Of course there are many areas where asili nidi comunali or convenzionati aren't enough, but here in Milan the situation is not that desperate. IAs I said I was in the UK when mine were at nido age, but the majority of my friends here in Milan found a place for their little ones at their local nidi.

[MerlinScot]

Franca, you mean England though. School is free in Scotland, although the children under 3 have playgroups and nursery is only over 3.

None of my friends found a place in a nido for their children, some not even in a materna. I can tell you that school situation in my area is very desperate (used to live in the Florentine area).
Very often children are in nonni's care until they are 4 or 5.
It seems a bit heavier for them... then nidos are only for single parents working because if both parents do work, the chance of a place is zero because of the income.
That also explain why in Tuscany children of other nationalities are the majority in the nidos, very often because only one parent works in extracomunitarie families. I can tell you that for sure because my mum lives in a ground floor flat and on one of her house sides there is an asilo nido, she chats very often with the teachers about this topic.

Anyway, I would prefer to pay 500£ out of our British wages than 400euros of Italian wages. Me and my ex fiances together, once paid the mortgage and the loans, what was left was barely enough to pay for food. That equals that, at least where I was living before, you can't have children if you don't have 'healthy' nonni.