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Live webchat with Richard Dawkins, Wed 23 June, 10am-11am

496 replies

GeraldineMumsnet · 17/06/2010 12:47

We're pleased to welcome Richard Dawkins for a webchat on Wednesday 23 June from 10am-11am. Richard is a celebrated evolutionary biologist and atheist, and author of the best-selling God Delusion.

He has presented programmes on Channel Four that range from enthusing about the Genius of Charles Darwin to arguing against religion in Root of All Evil?

His latest project is taking a long hard look at education and the role religion continues to play in it.

He wants to hear first-hand from Mumsnetters what faith and church schools are really like. How successful are they? Are they selection by another means? Are they divisive? And are they making hypocrites out of non-believing parents who go to church just to send their children to them?

If you can't make the discussion but want to contribute, please post your views here.

Thanks and hope you can join us.

OP posts:
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lavenderbongo · 23/06/2010 03:51

Ooh - just read some more of the posts on here. Some people are suggesting that removing religion from schools would leave schools vunerable to being dictated to more by the government and could lead to a fascist society.
I live in New Zealand were almost all schools are secular. My daughter goes to one and it is certainly not fascist in any way! Its fab - all encompassing, friendly, fun, moral and just generally great. They dont have a daily act of worship but they do have assemblies with no religious content. And yet still my daughters seems to be growing up with a good idea of the difference between right and wrong.

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cauliffe · 23/06/2010 05:11

Mr Dawkins,

I wholeheartedly agree with you on the divisive and destructive role religion plays in society. I also think that it should not be something we teach children to believe, I think that they should instead be taught about different world religions in an unbiased and factual way.

I have experienced religious education in both Scottish and English secondary schools (both of which were in state comprehensives) and have to say I much preferred my experience in Scotland. We were taught about a variety of religions in weekly lessons, and though there was a focus on Christianity, it was only slight.

However, the religious education I received in England was deplorable. Instead of weekly RE classes we had an annual 'RE Day', which amounted to indoctrination rather than education. The school contracted in a Christian organisation called 'STEP' (www.stepschoolswork.org/) to host this day. Every year it was filled with emotive monologues about the volunteers own conversions and the kindness of Jesus. It really angers me that this is the ONLY religious education offered to children at my school. The same group came in year after year, with the obvious intent on converting pupils. That the school considered this to be education is laughable. Most of the pupils at the school were white and from middle class CofE backgrounds. If only one religion is covered in RE, it most certainly should not be Christianity, but rather a religion such as Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, or Hinduism that is less familiar to the children. I really cannot put into words how angry it makes me that RE at this school was so limited in scope, and that the 'teachers' were intending to convert rather than teach.

In my opinion religious education is important but it must be executed correctly. Firstly, it should cover a wide variety of world religions (and perhaps historical religions). Secondly, it should do so in an unbiased manner.

Another problem which I think is little addressed is the indoctrination which occurs in primary schools. Though neither of the primary schools I attended were 'faith schools' prayer and hymns were a regular occurrence. We were also given the opportunity to go on a week long school trip which was provided at a Christian adventure centre, and of course this involved Christian videos and discussion of god in the evenings. I think this kind of religious influence on schools and children is completely unacceptable.

I also have an enormous problem with state funded faith schools. It seems completely absurd that taxpayers money goes toward schools which do not welcome all children. Furthermore, I do not think the state should fund any form of religious indoctrination. Children receiving a state education should not be labeled or encouraged into religion.

I think faith schools are 'better' academically because in selecting for religion they select for middle class children. Parents who lie about their religion in order to gain a place are also more likely to be middle class. In addition I think the church funding these schools receive also has an influence on performance.

Perhaps an answer to faith schools would be the creation of secular schools. These could apply to be categorised as faith schools in order to benefit from the increased freedom faith schools have in setting their curricula. However, instead of teaching religion the schools could teach ABOUT religion, but devoting much more time to philosophy, ethics and scientific reasoning.

I've really enjoyed your books by the way, your books about evolution are both accessible but also fascinating. Also your interview with Ted Haggard provided a few laughs/sobs of frustration. Thanks for fighting the atheist corner!

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cauliffe · 23/06/2010 05:28

Sorry - in all this Dawkins based excitement I forgot to say that I think science education in schools isn't good enough. More time ought to be dedicated to science, and importantly explaining scientific reasoning and proof. There was very little of this in my science education (despite two a-levels), and I think it is just as important as teaching about photosynthesis or whatever.

Also I think a more thorough science education would leave people less vulnerable to the 'answers' offered by religion.

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PfftTheMagicDragon · 23/06/2010 07:53

I would very much like to see the removal of a faith worshipping requirement in non-faith schools. I would be prepared to campaign towards this, or help out/donate in some way.

How do you think we could go about this?

As a bigger issue I would like to see th elimination of all faith schools, but failing that, it would relieve me somewhat if the ones that claimed NOT to be faith schools were actually not faith schools.

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pernickety · 23/06/2010 08:14

Like Sal321 - I very much resent the implication that religious affiliation instils values in children. There seems to exist amongst people this idea that children are not good children until they know and accept Jesus and god. I think these people are afraid of children who do not defer to an imagined higher power, maybe because they are so conditioned to doing that themselves.

And like PfftTheMagicDragon, failing the abolition of state-funded faith schools, how can we parents harness our collective voices of dissent to get the undercurrent of christianity out of our non-faith schools?

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slug · 23/06/2010 09:34

Morning Professor Dawkins

Can I start by saying my husband went a gentle shade of green when I mentioned you were coming on here. He is a scientist and is jealous that I get to talk to all the interesting people.

When we were looking for a primary school for our daughter we were faced with a dilemma

The five schools closest to us are all religious. Apart from that we could have sent her to a state school that is the LEA's dumping ground for children that have been excluded from other schools or one, heavily oversubscribed state school. All the religious schools demanded a letter from our local priest/vicar/witchdoctor stating that we were regular worshipers or, failing that, we would have to sign a form stating that we agreed with the school's ethos. Since my daugher is female and because she has beloved members of her family who are homosexual, we felt we couldn't agree with the ethos of an institution that explicitly discriminates against people we hold dear. Our only option was the oversubscribed state school.

We were fortunate enough to get a place in the school of our choice. Many of our local religious schools have not fully recruited, yet there is a waiting list for my daughter's school. We have found that a strange thing has happened. My daughter has classmates who come from athiest families. She has Jewish, Muslim, Sikh and Bahai classmates. However, she has no Christian classmates. They have all been siphoned off by the local faith schools. This makes RE and the requirement for worship of "a broadly Christian nature" a bit of a joke really. Its quite funny to witness all those little faces slightly puzzled by the discussion of the baby Jesus. (DD thinks he must be a bit like Dr Who only smaller)

I also whould very much like to see the removal of the faith worshipping requirement in schools. It simply fails to take into account the true nature of belief within Britain today. I think the time would be better spent teaching philosophy and logic. Our children seem so uncritical and unable to question.

P.S. I would like to echo what cauliffe said about science education. It's simply dreadful at the moment.

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Druzhok · 23/06/2010 09:48

I agree with onebatmother: that critical thinking is far mroe important than any woolly interpretations of religious doctrine. I am vehemently opposed to religious teaching in schools; basic principles of consideration for others can be taught very well without it.

I particularly oppose the acceptance of the Christianity as neutral; that because my children attend English schools, it is fully acceptable to weave the Church of England into their daily learning. I would accept a general critical approach to faith - the Qur'an and Torah both contain some extremely interesting ideas - but I do not want my child praying or singing about God. Let them sing about nature or their friends and family: it is abusive to fill their heads with this fiction when they are so impressionable. It is also anti-reason; how can we teach science alongside praying for a fictional god? There is room for teaching our children to be Good Citizens, but intangible mumbo jumbo has no place in a school.

I believe that part of the literacy curriculum is an analysis of advertising; encouraging children to consider the motives and methods of advertisers. This approach should be extended to any religious learning. There is so little analysis of motive. The history of Christianity is all about social control and the accumulation of wealth; let's analyse that alongside our assessment of consumerism.

My husband is a senior primary school teacher and is increasingly marginalised for hrefusing to participate (or force children to participate) in religious singing and other activities. The children's creative time is endlessly hijacked by Christian vocabularly and methods. They can't sing without singing about God. They can't join together without being expected to worship God. This is NOT a CofE school, either, just headed by a teacher with their own agenda.

Our friends teach at a faith school (RC) and say that the church has a disproportionate influence over the curriculum; for something like 6% of funding, they affect 40-50% of the children's teaching.

I support your project wholeheartedly, Mr Dawkins, and will continue to challenge the daily attack on reason and independent thought.

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Druzhok · 23/06/2010 09:52

Sorry: Professor Dawkins.

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OutrageousFlavourLikeFreesias · 23/06/2010 09:56

Hello Professor Dawkins,

Firstly, I want to say a huge thank you for your books, which I find inspiring and moving beyond words. I really wish I had a better expression for the experience of reading "The God Delusion" than a "road to Damascus moment", but, well, there it is. It truly was life-changing for me, and I can't thank you enough.

Secondly, I wanted to ask your advice about how I can explain the difficult (indeed, mind-blowing) concept of evolution to my children, aged seven and four.

Do you have any advice? Alternatively, can you recommend any books?

Thank you so much in advance!

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Druzhok · 23/06/2010 09:57

Agree with Cauliffe, re reasoning and proof. My science education (the experimental element) was broadly about fiddling the results to prove what we were told to prove. To accept what we had been told.

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cauliffe · 23/06/2010 09:57

Can I also ask how you feel about other nonsenses parents teach their children; for example, Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny?

It's not been something I've had to contend with yet but there does seem something a little wrong with deliberately misleading children over such things. I found it particularly unpleasant when my younger brother was starting to question the existence of Santa and in response to his questions was given the complete assurance of my mother that he was real.

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JustineMumsnet · 23/06/2010 10:00

We're delighted to say that Richard is here at the Towers and screenside. He's kicked his shoes off and is ready to go so he'll be with you in a minute.

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RichardDawkins · 23/06/2010 10:00

Its wonderful to be here today, and I am especially touched by the thoughtful posts from many Mumsnetters. Some of you, like vinauchocolate have shared very personal experiences with me, and I?m am terribly sorry to hear about the loss of your child.
What the earlier posts have demonstrated is that education and the role that faith schools play within it is a subject close to a lot of your hearts, and it is to mine.
Rather than debating my views as an atheist and how faith based subjects such as creationism are still taught in some schools ? I really want to spend the hour hearing from you and hearing your views and questions about faith based education.
One thing that concerns me, as it does SomeGuy, MelMack and GetOrfMoiLand is the choices parents are forced to consider when choosing a school for your child, is it better to stand by one?s principles or be hypocritical in order to provide the best option? What a horrible dilemma to be forced into.

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SordidSucker · 23/06/2010 10:02

Hello Mr Dawkins.

If we don't know for certain what happens to our consciousness when we die, why shouldn't we believe in an afterlife for our own comfort or peace of mind?

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stubbornhubby · 23/06/2010 10:03

I think it's pretty simple -

  1. it's a free country, churches should be free to set up schools, people should be free to send their children to them

  2. but the state has no business funding faith schools.
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Druzhok · 23/06/2010 10:04

Yes, I thought we divided state and religion a while ago.

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RichardDawkins · 23/06/2010 10:05

Yes, It's a free country, and the point is that the state should not be funding special interests like religions. Religions already have the advantage of being tax free

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cauliffe · 23/06/2010 10:06

stubbornhubby - agreed

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slug · 23/06/2010 10:06

It's not that we were forced into a choice, it's that we were excluded from state funded schools because of our lack of faith.

How can that be right? Non-faith schools have to take children of faith, yet state funded faith schools can explicitly exclude the children of parents who don't worship at the local church.

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SordidSucker · 23/06/2010 10:06

Oops I misread the topic.

That's the result of my faith based education.

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RichardDawkins · 23/06/2010 10:08

Druzhok
Maybe in America there is a separation between church and state. Here in Britain we have a state religion, of whch the queen is head. And unlike in America, the British government is subsidizing schools of other religions like Islam. Is there anyone out there who wants to defend this?
What does anybody think?

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RichardDawkins · 23/06/2010 10:10

Slug I totally agree that it is wrong to be excluded because of your lack of faith. Have others had experience of this? Or have you been forced into hypocrisy, as we have been hearing from other posters?

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shubunkin · 23/06/2010 10:10

What suggestions would you give to a parent who is facing the dilemma of "do I start going to church just to get my child into the local junior (faith) school". As the faith school is oversubscribed, being hypocritical is our only chance of getting into it. I'm not even sure I want him to go there, but the alternative is a commute and my child being separated from friends he's made at the local non-faith infant school.

Would also love to hear any books you'd recommend for 4-7 age group on explaining evolution. And also ideas to counter the drip drip of God they get from even a non-faith school, while at the same time remaining respectful of other children/teachers.

Love your books by the way. The Selfish Gene was a huge influence on my thinking.

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InmyheadIminParis · 23/06/2010 10:11

just made it!
Thank you Mumsnet. What a fantastic guest.

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cauliffe · 23/06/2010 10:11

if we fund faith schools at all, it's completely right that we fund all types of faith school. However, I do think this is divisive. There's a lot of tabloid stirring about state funded Islamic schools/mosques etc. I just wish they'd apply the same logic to Christian schools!

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