Live webchat with Richard Dawkins, Wed 23 June, 10am-11am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're pleased to welcome Richard Dawkins for a webchat on Wednesday 23 June from 10am-11am. Richard is a celebrated evolutionary biologist and atheist, and author of the best-selling God Delusion.

He has presented programmes on Channel Four that range from enthusing about the Genius of Charles Darwin to arguing against religion in Root of All Evil?

His latest project is taking a long hard look at education and the role religion continues to play in it.

He wants to hear first-hand from Mumsnetters what faith and church schools are really like. How successful are they? Are they selection by another means? Are they divisive? And are they making hypocrites out of non-believing parents who go to church just to send their children to them?

If you can't make the discussion but want to contribute, please post your views here.

Thanks and hope you can join us.

[Pofacedagain]

And btw there are some lentil weaving Guardian readers who think vaccination is evil and do reiki, etc, too. Doesn't mean all Guardian readers feel the same. This thread has become 'describe the most bonkers christian you can to make us atheists looks so intellectually superior'

It is really, er, philosophically facile.

[TheFallenMadonna]

What is an atheist school? Secular schools - yes! How would an atheist school differ?

I am a secularist, but not an atheist.

(And hello to Richard Dawkins!)

[PfftTheMagicDragon]

I feel that even non faith schools are suspiciously faith-y. My child goes to a state school. One of the reasons that we moved out of our last area was that the only school serving the area was CofE and as strict athiests I was not comfortable with this.

I know about the "daily act of worship" bollocks, but we still have regular church music groups coming to the school, handing out leaflets, playgroups helping out, while promoting their church. This happens more than I am comfortable with, and the school is not supposed to have a religious affiliation. This is all Christian, by the way, no Buddhist drummers in.

Faith schools concern me, but there are wider issues in non faith schools as well. It feels like the church is VERY prevalent in schools.

[JoeBauwens]

Pofacedagain

I'm fully aware mainstream Anglicans don't go in for strange faith healing ceremonies, but the ones running 2/3 local primary schools do. Perfectly nice, sane Anglicans in other parts of the country, who don't wished to be tarred with the same brush, would be well advised to write to the Diosence of Birmingham and ask them exactly what's going on.

[PfftTheMagicDragon]

"The fact is that if we take faith, any faith, out of schools it would not lead to equality or harmony. It would lead to a fascist country where the STATE dictates what our children will be allowed to believe and what teachers are allowed to say about belief in a uniform set of state schools: ie thought control. State controlled atheism or secularism in ALL schools? NO THANKS! "

But what is wrong with secular schools with no church affiliation teaching a wide range of religions/morals/beliefs/philosophies? I don't see any examples of church schools giving a wide rounded religious education...

[tiawomt]

I am a scientist and a non-believer according to the religious experiences or views i have ever come across. I think that in our development as a species we still have a lot to learn about our place on this planet and within the universe. This includes the question of our being which is currently provided for by godly beliefs just as it was by the ancient greeks, druids etc in past millenia.

The beliefs (religious and non-religious) that are supported by and which can define a community can be a valuable part of its success and the human state of mind - until they become extreme...

I would like my children to have the opportunity to learn as much as they want about how the people of this world work, be that, for example, in a medical, business or religious sense. In the modern multicultural country that is now the UK, this should be easy to achieve, but given the biased views that are still prevalent do you think this is possible in a mono-faith based school environment?

[Pofacedagain]

I would have no problem with secular schools that taught the importance of the values of Christianity [compassion, respect, tolerance and social justice and equality] and other world religions. Christianity does not have exclusive ownership of these values but I would argue was certainly responsible for entrenching them in the Western world.

What I would really like though is a way of teaching children in which science and philosophy and the mysteries of our existence are all interlinked. A holistic approach. And that is certainly missing at present. I like this article by John Gray on Secular Fundamentalism.

2 out of 3 c of e primary schools are run by vaccination-despising street healing types Joe Bauwens? Are you sure about that?

[Pofacedagain]

For example, this research by scientists linking quantum mechanics and the possiblity of an afterlife is fascinating.

[JoeBauwens]

Pofacedagain

Sadly, yes, I'm sure about that. I've no idea to what extent this philosophy permiates the schools, but I don't intend to find out. As a non-Anglican I am not allowed to send my child there anyway, but this still worries me a great deal.

The Anglican church does have a tendency to try to be all things to all men, and at the extremes tends to embrace either new-age weirdness, or high Catholic ritual. I happen to live in an area where new age weirdness has one out (possibly a reaction to a powerful local Catholic church).

It may well be that 90% of the local Anglican community are completely sane and do not endorse this sort of behaviour; however they are not comming out and saying so, so any observer from outside the church is likely to conclude that this behaviour is condoned by all.

[sfxmum]

''I would have no problem with secular schools that taught the importance of the values of Christianity [compassion, respect, tolerance and social justice and equality] and other world religions. Christianity does not have exclusive ownership of these values but I would argue was certainly responsible for entrenching them in the Western world''

I would beg to differ with that assertion
compassion, respect, tolerance and social justice and equality often survive in spite of religious doctrine although to be fair some branches of some churches, particularly those working closely with the poor and excluded are stronger on those values

and the talk of of fundamentalism atheism, please s that even an argument?

[Pofacedagain]

You misunderstand me sfxmum. I have said many times that many Christians often work actively against the teachings of Christ. However I think it is fair to say that the idea of unconditional compassion was one that Christ was quite revolutionary in bringing to the fore [even if he nicked it from the Buddhists] It is rather hard to know what might have been but he was certainly one of the first to propose the values that modern liberal society holds dear. did you read the article? It is quite interesting.

I strongly disagree with you about the 2/3 primary schools being run by nutters JoeBauwens. If that was the case intelligent people [often atheist] would not be queuing up to try to get their children in. I certainly would not allow my children to go to a school where creationism was taught.

right will try to bugger off now.

[zerominuszero]

Richard,

Like many here, I'm a big fan. However, another thing I am a big fan of is the political view of libertarianism. So my question for you is: can one be a libertarian and still wish to ban faith schools?

As much as I loathe the idea of faith schools myself, I still have a niggling feeling at the back of my head that, really, as a libertarian, I have to accept that parents should get the schools they wish for. After all, I would like to see schools that, say, teach Shakespeare and if the state decided that the teaching of Shakespeare was unnecessary, I might feel compelled to set up my own school that tackles King Lear.

So can I really complain when religious parents want to set up their own faith schools (or let the state do it for them)?

Please do keep up the good work Richard,

Zero Minus Zero

[JoeBauwens]

Pofacedagain

I'm not claiming that 2/3 primary schools in the country are run by nutters, just that two out of the three primary schools for which I am in the catchment area are run by the Anglican church, which, locally, seems to endorse faith healing & discourage the use of conventional medicene. The third of the three schools is run by the Catholic church.

What I was objecting to is that in order to get primary schooling where I live you have to 'choose' to join one congregation or the other, despite the fact I live in a very mixed community with several dozen different faiths.

I doubt anybody would lie to get their children in specifically, just as I doubt I will ever hear anybody say they moved to Birmingham to get the best education for their kids. The problem is the attempt by the churches to use the schools system to blackmail people into joining & thereby abandon their own faith.

[Pofacedagain]

ah ok fine.

Humanitarian schools then perhaps the best idea. Secular just seem to stand for nothing.

[smittenkitten]

Professor Dawkins

so excited to have you here. Don't know if I'll be able to make the actual chat so wanted to get my question on.

As an atheist converted by you (are you keeping a tally?), obviously I am deeply annoyed by faith schools, but there is a requirement for collective worship in all state schools. What do you think are the most effective ways we can go about getting this eliminated as it is archaic.

My son starts school (not a faith school) this september, and I was horrified when we visited and the children sang us a song about Jesus!

thank you for your wonderful, enlightening work, and thanks in advance for your thoughts on my question.

[Pofacedagain]

Or humanist schools though that infers an active rejection of spiritual belief.

[Romanarama]

Prof Dawkins, you are a hero of mine too. I have no experience of faith schools and am an atheist, though I teach my children about the bible stories and the history of Christianity in particular, and of other religions in a rather general way. I think this knowledge is an important part of understanding history and literature, and also of having some notion what their numerous committed RC relatives are on about.

My sons are at French school. It is completely secular, but there is no suggestion that atheism or secularism is being pushed onto children or families. Religion (and anti-religion) are absent from the education system. This is perhaps the aspect of the school that I like the most.

I am reading "The God Delusion" at the moment. It certainly doesn't say that the whole Christian church refutes evolution, but it does argue that supporting evolution while preaching Adam and Eve at the same time is confusing for many, and that the Christian church is responsible for the huge numbers of creationists in the US and elsewhere.

[JoeBauwens]

Pofacedagain

Secularism does stand for nothing (sort of). A secular school teaches things like Maths, Science & Languages, but leaves parents to arrange their own religious education (or lack of). This is the system used in the US & France; neither of which seems to have collapsed into godless anarchy.

A humanist school, by contrast, would actively teach humanist values but might potentially object to parents taking children to church or sending them to Sunday school (ditto Mosques, Koranic schools etc).

Although I am a humanist atheist I would be very uncomfortable with this, as I believe in freedom of belief.

Having said this, were there to be a humanist school where I lived providing an alternative to the available schools, I would probably fight tooth and nail to get my son into it.

[Pofacedagain]

No I don't mean a secular school needs to provide a religious education, though I think it would be crucial as a reference for most of our creativity historically [sacred music, literature and art]

I just mean I think a school should have a set of values that it actively promotes, along the lines of compassion, tolerance and social justice.

[TheFallenMadonna]

Non-faith secondary schools IME promote the values that you suggest without reference to religious faith. None of the schools I have worked in have a religious undercurrent in the way my children's non-faith primary has.

[jonicomelately]

I sent my DS to a Catholic school (I attended one myself). I then pulled him out and looking at it from the outside in, the view is pretty scary. There are a tight-knot group of families who have a very close relationship with the Parish Priest. They are not the warmest, friendliest types but seem to wield a lot of power (front rows of the pews at church, Parish council, school governers etc).

When you attend baptism classes, marriage classes etc it's run by these people. They seem to find it OK to teach us how we should run our families on issues such as global warming (we're all using too much energy and should remember to turn off lights when we leave the room but it's OK for them to have at least four children . One particular man tells people (who are preparing for marriage) not to have IVF as these children are more likely to have special needs. He then represents sn children as black balls (don't ask me why) and 'normal' children as white balls.

If I'm honest I still have a faith. That's just a personal thing which I've wrestled with long and hard because I know it defies logic etc. I don't deny evolution etc because I'm not insane. On a very simplistic level I think what Jesus said and did resonates with me and seems kind and truthful and we would all be better if we followed a moral code which broadly follows these principles. Let's face it there are a hell of a lot of worse things to worship (footballers, celebrities etc although you no doubt disagree). However, I have moved away from the Church in recent times and as a result don't like a school which so closely aligns itself with it.

I think the thing I dislike the most about Christian, particularly Catholic teaching is how fatalistic is teaches you to be. I see people in my community accepting their lot and hoping answers will drop out of the skies. I don't want my children to adopt this.

The guilt is also terrible. I still struggle with this at times. Every Sunday I feel I've failed by not attending Mass. It's how I've been conditioned. As I child we had to stand and explain to the class our reasons for not attending Mass.

I've no question as such (does that make me stupid?) but you have asked for our experiences. I could tell you more about my school days which were filled with religious people of the kindest and the cruelest natures in equal measure, but I don't want to bore you.

I admire you Professor Dawkins and watch this with immense interest.

[lal123]

Sorry I haven't had time to read through this whole thread. Being brought up in the 70s/80s in Northern Ireland I have a particular interest in "faith" schools as virtually every school at the time was either protestant or catholic. They serve(d) to completely separate children and indoctrinate them in the respective culture and to my mind continue to undermine an inclusive community there.

Whether faith schools cause intolerance or are a symptom of wider intolerance in communities is an interesting question.

I look forward to the webchat very much.

[Sal321]

My experience of religion in schools is primarily from the perspective of a teacher. I am now looking at local options for my own children who I would like to be taught about the diversity of beliefs but not that any of them are fact. I have watched 5 year olds being told by the local vicar that "Jesus died for you" which I think is a confusing and odd message for this age group.

My concerns are:

The suggestion that faith schools draw on faith to instil values in children - as an atheist raised by atheist parents I am confident that I have as strong personal values as anyone else and contribute to society more than most ? yet this myth survives.

That teaching faith as fact in contradiction to the messages given to a child at home is likely to undermine the teacher?s credibility in the child's eyes.

That in some, generally rural, areas the only primary provision is CofE and to send your child to an alternative would block them from having local friends and cause significant inconvenience.

That in opting out of faith schools the requirement for worship remains.

[lavenderbongo]

Mr Dawkins

I have experienced faith schools myself and attended CofE schools and my siblings attended a Catholic secondary school thanks to my Mums last minute conversion. This was done in desperation as she did not want them to have to attend the local alternatives which had very bad reputations. My siblings coming from an atheist background found attending a Catholic school extremely difficult. They had little or no religious knowledge and found the rules and expectations that go with a Catholic school difficult to manage.

I believe that education should be secular and the only religious content should be in Religious Education lessons convering all beliefs taught with equal measure.

I think it is ridiculous that we find people pretending to have a particular faith in order to gain entry into the most popular school. It is simply another way of seperating people and sorting them into the haves and have nots. Those with parents willing to compromise their beliefs in an attempt to give their children a head start in life and those who can't and have to accept going to a less impressive school.

I think we have to ask why these religious schools are so desirable and why they get such goods results. I think the answer is that they are so oversubscribed that they are able to pick and choose who gets in. Most of these schools will have students from stable, middle class families. Therefore they are likely to be better behaved and recieve a huge amount of encouragement from home to do well. The remaining schools in the area will recieve a large amount of kids from troubled backgrounds and those who failed to get into their school of choice and therefore do not want to be there anyway.

Surely if all religion was removed from these schools we would find that the results began to even out across the range of schools as a more even intake of abilities was achieved.

I also do not like the divisive effect that religious school have. The way it defines society at such an early stage into them and us. Those who are with "that particular God" and those that aren't. We should not be highlighting these differences at such a young age but celebrating them. Bringing people together in education to learn about all different faiths. I have taught Religious Education and the most rewarding and memorable lessons were the ones where the Hindu students and the Muslims students told the class what their particular faiths meant to them.

Anyway this is just my opinion.