Challenging the use of homophobic language in schools: Mumsnet and Stonewall campaign

[RebeccaMumsnet]

"That's so gay." Um, actually it probably isn't.

It's also something most of us don't want to hear, and it's absolutely something young people shouldn't have to hear in the classroom.
That's why, for Anti-Bullying Week this year, we've teamed up with Stonewall on Gay. Let’s Get Over It, a campaign to provide guidance to schools, parents and young people, and to address the misuse of the word 'gay'.

Mumsnetters talked about the need for the campaign here, and you can get involved in it here.


Do share on Twitter #GetOverIt, Facebook and Google+ - the more people know about the campaign, the more we can challenge unacceptable language and change the culture of our schools. And do feel free to discuss it here too.

Tomorrow, Will Young will be coming into MNHQ for a webchat about the campaign at 12pm - watch active for the webchat thread which will be up later and post your questions to him there.

[AlwaysInBed]

Can I just ask, what do these campaigns actually do? Do they just educate MNers (preaching to the choir?) or more? (Although the former is valuable, obviously, but I don't see the effectiveness of the MN campaigns, despite sometimes having those issues very close to home).

[octopusinastringbag]

My son will say something is so gay and I don't much like it. However, we spoke about the reasons why I don't like it and he understands that and sees gay relationships as part and parcel of life. I've not made a big deal about him using it, he can make his own mind up but he has to know the issues behind it. Recently he has been using it less and I think he'll just stop of his own accord but I doubt he would if I'd come down heavy on him.

[TiggyD]

Intitgrand said: "Terms such as 'Black MOnday' on the stock exchange, and people describe being in a black mood are not condemned.What is the difference ."

I think the main difference is the "Gay" = "Bad" thing is very new.

If any term is upsetting to a group of people, they can ask for it not to be used and nice people will stop.

Will you stop using "Gay" to mean bad?

[member]

I know that as part of anti-bullying week that dd's secondary school(in partnership with the other two secondaries in our town) are doing tutor work & assemblies on the use of homophobic language this week. So unless this is a total coincidence, it would seem that the campaign will be raising awareness/educating the 11-18 year olds in our town & not just preaching to the converted Alwaysinbed

[octopusinastringbag]

But with 'black monday' and 'black mood' etc then the black is bad, likewise 'black sheep' as in the black sheep of the family. It's nothing new that using a word that can describe people is bad.

Why not have a campaign to have gay meaning happy and cheerful instead of homosexual?

Language changes....

[Devora]

WorksforPOTUS, do you really think that gay people are afforded more equality than Christians? Really?

I think it's highly desirable to avoid causing offence to people's faith, but honestly: have you ever lost a job because you are a Christian? Have you ever been beaten up for being a Christian? Have you ever lost a tenancy for being Christian? Have your children been taken away from you because of your Christianity? Have you been convicted of 'crimes' that don't exist for non-Christians? Have people tried to 'cure' you of being Christian? Have your family thrown you out on the streets because of your Christianity? Have you ever tried to kill yourself because you feel there is no place for you in this world as a Christian?

All of the above has been the experience of people I know and care about since I first came out 30 years ago. Thankfully, the world is changing fast and my children will have a very different experience of homophobia than mine. I am so grateful for the efforts of organisations like Stonewall and Mumsnet, that have challenged the complacent majority and made our society a kinder, more thoughtful place for gay people.

[wetaugust]

No - we've all this thing wrong.

What the camapign is saying is that the description 'gay' is OK if used in the correct context i.e. the gay Community or being gay.

What they are attempting to stamp out is the derogatory use of the word gay - as in 'you're so gay'.

I think the campaign is a bit unnecessary. It's a very recent application of the word and before long it will be passe. Whereas the appropraition of 'gay' has been a very successful move. Terms such as 'gay icon', 'glad to be gay' are now ingrained in every day use - something I would not have thought possible when I was younger and homophobia was overt.

I think this campaign will shoot itself in the foot as most people will jump to the conclusion that the word 'gay' is now taboo - wrongly.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

Christians and gay people get terrible treatment in many countries. and both can be treated badly here but i dont know of anyone being killed for being Christian in the uk recently.

however you don't need to be murdered to deserve equality.

[Catsize]

devora, what you describe your children hearing etc. is what I fear for my 2yr old and due in Feb second child.
We are same-sex parents, and I agree with the 'that's so gay' thing demeaning a family and gay people in general.
As a Christian, I also find some anti-Christian language offensive, as worksfor said, but you are right - the two hurts are not comparable. I do not feel wounded to the core when someone insults my faith, but I do when I suffer homophobia, directly or indirectly.

[WorksforPOTUS]

Devora - none of the things you ask about have been my own experience personally, but sadly it is the experience of many Christians here in the UK and around the world for the past 2000 years and to date. Personally I face marginalisation, ridicule (sometimes open, sometimes more covert), scorn, derision, social exclusion in some ways & all the time. My children are also already starting to feel the effects of being Christian.

Anyway - I'm aware that Christian persecution is not at all the subject of this discussion and apologise for causing a diversion.

Injustice, oppression and violence of any kind against any human being by others is a terrible thing which must be stopped.
But - my cynicism is directed at my perception of the motivation behind campaigns such as these.

[Merguez]

I'm not sure about this.

When my dc (2 boys, 11 and 14) use the expression "that's so gay" they are not referring to anything with homosexual overtones.

They just mean "that's a bit rubbish". I think the word has evolved into a new meaning and I don't really see it as offensive in that way.

A bit how it evolved from its original meaning of 'happy' I guess. I would be interested in hearing from someone who understands linguistics.

Oh, and I have a LOT of gay friends of both sexes and my dc are well aware of that and are extremely aware of homophobia and are strongly against it. And we have discussed their use of the expression and how it could be misinterpreted and offensive to some.

[Devora]

I'm sorry, WorksforPOTUS, but you did imply very strongly that gay people were somehow having an easy life compared to Christians, that they are 'more equal'.

You needed to be called on that, so that's what I did. I would never defend people taking potshots at Christians, but it is historically incorrect and hugely unhelpful to imply that gay people are somehow given a privileged ride.

You haven't been specific about what you think the motivations behind this campaign are, other than it's a PC thing. Not sure what you mean by that. What do YOU think the motivations are?

[Devora]

Merguez, do you think that the 'new meaning' of gay has got nothing to do with the more established meaning? Just coincidence?

And, however innocently it's used, don't you think that using it has an impact on perceptions of gayness? Like, I don't think that people who call grown women 'girls' are necessarily sexists, but I do think this habit has an impact on how women are viewed in society.

[noblegiraffe]

Comparing 'Black Monday' to 'That's so gay' is idiotic. Black Monday is clearly referring to the colour black, and nothing to do with black people. It's not because of people thinking that black people are a bit rubbish with money, likewise a black mood isn't because black people are stereotyped as pissed off.

Arguing that 'that's so gay' is nothing to do and has never had anything to do with a negative perception of homosexuality is going to be tricky especially seeing as 'you're gay' not meaning you're rubbish, but actually implying homosexuality, is also used as an insult.

Gay = rubbish isn't separate to gay = homosexual, it's directly related to it.

We're only ten years (to the day) from the repeal of Section 28. 12 years since the age of consent was equalised. Gay teenagers still struggle to come out and aren't always accepted.

So stop trying to make out that using gay as a synonym for shit isn't a problem. It is.

[Andro]

I would support such a campaign if I actually believed it would do what it says - focus on misuse of the word gay. What I think will actually happen, is that gay will become stigmatized with respect to all uses except as a descriptor related to homosexuality...mainly because it's easier to police the use of a word when you have only one accepted meaning rather than having to consider context.

Unfortunately, the more adults try to police things like this the more attractive the terms are to young people trying to get a rise out of each other.

Devora - I've been insulted, spat on, dismissed as an uneducated weirdo and ostracized all because of my faith. I have also had unfounded accusations and inaccurate opinions accredited to me for the same reason.

[Devora]

Beautifully put, noblegiraffe.

[Devora]

Andro, I'm very sorry to hear that. But you're missing the central point I was challenging: which was that gay people are 'more equal' than Christians. Do you believe that?

I'm not setting this up as a competition - nothing makes me more weary than debating hierarchies of oppression - but the point is commonly made as a rationale for not tackling homophobia and I think shouldn't go untested.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

I am at some of the posts here.

Firstly, if Christian started to mean "a bit shit", you bet I'd be supporting a campaign to stamp out its use in the playground. But at the minute it's not.

Secondly, wtf is going on with the homophobic posts from adults? Elskovs, being gay is not necessarily about sex, just as being heterosexual is not about having sex. It's about same gender love. Do you really fear your DCs being taught about love?. Why will it be ok for them to learn about love between a man and a woman but not between a woman and a woman?

Maltese, I can't believe that you just compared the feelings if gay people to the feelings of trousers.

As for "preaching to the converted", I think this thread shows that there is so much work to be done as grown women don't even seem to realize the extent of their own homophobia.

[Everhopeful]

I'm old enough to have grown up with meanings 2 and 3 and had to learn the others. I think it's a pity when words get altered this way

[notthefirstagainstthewall]

So what about "queer" then?

[Andro]

But you're missing the central point I was challenging: which was that gay people are 'more equal' than Christians. Do you believe that?

I don't necessarily believe that gay people are more equal in law, I do think that there is so much fear of causing offense or being open to an allegation of homophobia that in some cases gay people can end up being perceived to have been given preferential treatment - or in a few memorable cases at work were given preferential treatment quite blatantly.

[LayMizzRarb]

All of you who say you cannot control what your children say, or blame use of the word on kids being kids, how do stop them from using other offensive words? What would you do if one of them said 'oh John, he's such a cunt' ? No doubt they know better than to use such offensive words. You add the word Gay to that list and explain why it should not be used as an attack or insult.

Once again, your Grandmother sighs under her breath and tells you how the word 'Gay' once meant just 'Happy'

Well, unless your Grandmother is over 100, she is the one in the wrong !!! It was the reserved classes that adopted the word, very often in an insulting context, to ridicule the concept of homosexuality. In the 21st century it is now used again, predominantly by schoolchildren, in a derisory manner. i.e - "Your coat/bag/shoes" are gay, implying a negative association with the word.

In the former years of the 20th Century the word 'Gay' was used in a homosexual context by Noel Coward in 'Bittersweet'
It is believed that he is using the spelling G A Y, as an English form of the french word 'Gai' which was used as far back as 1650 to describe sexual relations and dalliance between people of the same sex.

“ Pretty boys, witty boys,
You may sneer
At our disintegration.
Haughty boys, naughty boys,
Dear, dear, dear!
Swooning with affectation...
And as we are the reason
For the "Nineties" being gay,
We all wear a green carnation. ”
—Noel Coward, 1929 , Bitter Sweet

[Andro]

^^and the issue of real and perceived preferential treatment doesn't just related to homosexuality!

[elskovs]

I guess I just don't want it spelt out.

Im not sure why, I suppose I don't really want them to get the idea that having a same sex partner would be an option for them. Even though I know that people are born gay. Id rather their eyes weren't opened to the possibility just yet thanks.

I guess that is a bit homophobic.

[QueenoftheSarf]

I totally agree with the point that's already been raised here by other posters that as language evolves, words can have more than one meaning.

Indeed that is very true of the word gay. It's only since relatively recently that it's been in common usage as a term describing being sexually attracted to people of the same sex and not to people of the opposite sex.

When I was at secondary school in the late 1970s and early 1980s you wouldn't have heard kids using the word "gay" to describe a person who preferred members of the same sex to members of the opposite sex. "Bummer" or "lessie" would probably have been the words of choice in those days. These days "bummer" would mean a dose of bad fortune. Similarly, you would never have heard the word "gay" used in place of "rubbish" or "stupid".

It's all a part of language changing and evolving.

My view for what it's worth is using the word "gay" to describe something that's perceived as stupid or naff is something that the overwhelming majority of children do not even associate with homosexuality or lesbianism.

"Gay" as it is used by kids to describe something perceived to be stupid or silly in my view has no direct link to intentional homophobic bullying.