For anyone wondering why lone parents had children with their no-good exes to begin with:

[HerBeatitudeLittleBella]

I can't speak for everyone else, but I had children with my ex because I genuinely had no idea what a loving, normal, functional relationship was, never having experienced one. I didn't know how normal people behaved in relationships; and so when I met someone who behaved with extreme abnormality, it felt familiar to me and for a long time, I didn't recognise that it was abnormal.

It was only as a result of having children, that I began to question my own upbringing. Which led me out of denial and made me realise that my own relationship was abnormal and that my XP and I were unwittingly repeating damaging family patterns and role-modelling a crap relationship to our child. And that if I couldn't change it (which I couldn't, because my XP refused to recognise that we were not conducting an emotionally healthy relationship), then I had to leave it, in order to give my children the best possible chance of not experiencing the same disadvantage in adult relationships that I had laboured under.

OK? Will that do you? Is your curiosity satsified now? Or would you like some other LP's to come on and justify to you why they had children with their exes? And when you want to moan about your partner, please bear in mind that no-one is going to ask you to account for why you have had children with him, if he's such a PITA.

[onlywantsone]

I cant find the thread that started this all off... where is it?

[newlysinglemummy]

herbeati - I have to agree with you that if I had not had dd with exp we would probably still be together now having a crap on and off relationship which was never going anywhere....

[TheFirstLiffey]

GettingaGrip, that's exactly what I felt but was unable to articulate. Well done. You have it in a nutshell and it's an important message.

[GettingaGrip]

Beanieb

This site by its very nature attracts people who are in distress. Posters who have 'just had a row with their partner' are very rarely told to leave, or that they are victims of abuse.

Telling a poster who is in a relationship in which they have no autonomy and are upset and frightened for themselves or their children they are equally to blame is the equivalent of telling a child who has been abused that you don't believe them and it is their fault.

These people have had a lifetime of being told it is their fault. They are often in despair, suicidal, and worried sick about their children either being abused or copying the abuser's behaviour.

They know something is terribly wrong, but have no idea what, and cannot improve things as their controlling dominating partner has spent years getting them exactly where they want them. That is cowed, confused, and lacking in any sense of self worth.

I have been told it is my fault for being abused a few times, and this is devastating, and abuse in itself.

When someone has plucked up the courage to ask total strangers on a site, which their abusive partner may well be stalking them on, and and may well punish them for posting on, the very last thing they need is to be told it is their fault, or 'they are equally to blame'.

[TheFirstLiffey]

True HerBeatitude, the first time my x lost his temper so badly, and broke things and kicked things, i was prg with dc1. The first time he hit me and pulled my hair I was pg with dc2.

[HerBeatitudeLittleBella]

75% of physical domestic violence starts in pregnancy or within a year of having a child.

Something else to bear in mind when asking why women had children with violent men.

[poshsinglemum]

Why did i have a child with my ex? because i wanted to- that's why!
The abuse started AFTER I got pregnant and during my pregnancy as so much abuse does unfortunately.
Even tho he's a tosspot i dont regret having kids with him as dd wouldnt b her georgeous self if it werent for him.

[beanieb]

"There is no defence for name-calling, long silent treatments or being bad-tempered unless one gets one's own way completely all the time, controlling all the money and abusing that control, prioritising your own career and life and interests at the expense of your partner/wife."

I absolutely agree.

[TheFirstLiffey]

Inevertalk, I read that comment on the other thread too, and was amazed. That was pretty much th e only comment that shocked me and hurt me. I was depressed and my judgment was clouded, but plenty of women who are confident and choose the man of their dreams end up cheated on or treated shoddily.

The woman who made that comment must have a chip missing.

[INeverTalkAboutThisStuff]

This post might be a bit triggery, I just want to respond to the thread title. I also felt upset when I read the comment in 'things you are too polite to say on mumsnet'.

At 15 I ran away from a violent, alcoholic home having previously been expelled from my nice academic private school and roundly told off by a teacher who told me I was lucky to have such a nice family when other girls were coping in difficult circumstances (she gave the example of a girl in the year below whose mother had died). I was sexually active from the age of 11, with my 17 year old step-brother.

I lived and slept rough for a while before finding lodgings with a Christian family. I met a nice man at their church, and impulsively agreed to marry him. I knew he had been in prison for drugs and that he had committed a sexual offence and if anything this increased my whole new life, fresh start, forgiveness and optimistic mood. I think we were happy for a while, but at some point he started using drugs again. Everything went bad. Without going into detail I confronted him about something very serious, I can't even say what it was. I can't think about it properly. Maybe you can guess in your own minds.

In response, he cleaned out our cupboards (literally), snapped my personal bank cards and cleared out our joint funds and disappeared one night. I couldn't even go to work that day, I had to borrow money to feed the children. A friend encouraged me to press charges but I couldn't get through the statement-making process. I also didn't want to put my children's father in prison, even though the risk of that was slender, but I had to balance that against a wider responsibiity. I can't describe how difficult that whole period was. The children were devastated and amidst the emotional and financial chaos of getting our lives back together I knew I had a responsibility to promote a good healthy relationship between them and him.

He left the country and has made very sporadic, infrequent contact since. He has gone on to hurt the children very badly but they still love him and would welcome him with open arms tomorrow. In some ways I've paid dearly for being young and wanting to be part of my own loving family, rushing into motherhood like that with the first person. But in others, well I've got these amazing children, how could I look at them now and wish I'd made different choices then?

[TheFirstLiffey]

BeanieB

THere is no defence for name-calling, long silent treatments or being bad-tempered unless one gets one's own way completely all the time, controlling all the money and abusing that control, prioritising your own career and life and interests at the expense of your partner/wife... A lot of women don't recognise that they're being abused. They only recognise that they're miserable.

I had children with my x because I was on the rebound after a broken relationship. I was literally jaded after about 7 yrs of on off on off broken relationships with men who always dumped me or married their x, or married the next gf or went back to south africa, Ireland, Australia. I felt exhausted and depressed when I met my x, and he ground me down even more. I was so lucky to get out of that relationship and I feel a lot stronger now, and I see things a lot more clearly now. Having 'his' children, loser that he is, has marshalled my thoughts and given me confidence, clarity and determination to be a good parent. That must be done alone as a single parent, for their sakes as well as mine.

[beanieb]

I thought I should respond as I said I agreed with whoever said "stop telling women they are being abused and filling their heads with rubbish".

When I said I agreed it was only in so much that often people do post here with their side of the story RE their relationship, and more often than not other posters leap straight in and call their partner an abuser. I think before responding with 'leave him!' and 'he's abusing you' it's wise to remember that we are usually only hearing one side of a story and that not everybody who is going through a difficult time with a partner is being abused.

Obviously there are some cases where it is quite obvious that the poster's husband is a c**t but not everyone is being abused, not everyone is dealing with toxic parents/partners.

Sometimes, in relationships, our own behaviour needs to be examined and changed. It takes two to tango.

I, of course, would never ever ask anyone to justify why they have had children with the people they are posting about.

[lou33]

it sounds like N1 has forgotten that the csa is about supporting his child and nothing to to with getting revenge on each other

still i should probably shut up, exh pays not a penny to me and never has, so i may be accused of being bitter

[ChasingSquirrels]

nope lou, personally I have ignored that part of the thread, but I did when I read that line.

[lou33]

"if I moved back into higher earning again, the CSA would steal the money from me and give it to the ex, who would use the money to fund any possible tactic to try to drive a wedge between my son and I."

am i the only one to be shocked at that comment?

[ChasingSquirrels]

and not all of them are arses. I think that mine did the wrong thing by just leaving without trying to work it out (we have different views on this), but it doesn't make him a fundamentally bad person.

[shoptilidrop]

Im sorry - i have to say i dont think it was a lapse of my judgement either. I thought we had a really strong relationship, we had been married for 4 years, 5 by the time we had dd, and together for 7. It was not until i was pg did i find out about all the affairs and the lies etc..........
Also im not the only one who has been taken in by him, family memebers, work, friends... none cant quite belive how he really is.
So, quite honestly, thats a terrible joke.....

Not everyone choses to become a single parent...... our children arent all accidents or unplanned.... i would suspect a large percentage are single parents as our dhs turned out, after years to be total arses...

[HerBeatitudeLittleBella]

Yes I don't think it was a lapse in my judgement either. On the contrary, given my emotional health at the time, having children with him was probably the best judgement I was capable of making. He's not violent, malevolent, controlling, or labouring under the delusion that standing on the outside pissing in to a family unit, is a valuable thing to do for your children. He was just unable to function as a husband and father. When the children are older and he's not called upon to do the nurturing, responsible bit of parenting, I hope that he'll be able to play a positive role in their lives and bring something valuable to them. In the meantime, he doesn't try to undermine me or be a negative force in his children's lives, which is to his credit.

[ChasingSquirrels]

It was a bad joke, nice to see the apology.
I don't think I had children with the wrong person, I don't regret the 17 years and 2 children that we had together.
I do regret that he felt unable to stay in the relationship with me.

[Quattrocento]

HBLB - sorry - bad joke - clearly having children with the wrong person is a lapse in judgement - we all make those, don't we?

NI - we tried reasoning with you on the supporting your children thread. You remain convinced that the right thing to do is to impoverish your exw to retain some degree of control. You may not succeed in impoverishing her permanently - she may get a good job, meet someone else etc. But you will succeed in impoverishing yourself.

Have you ever heard of the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?

[Ivykaty44]

oh just realised who is on this post - have scrubbed my reply and will now move swiflty on....................

[solidgoldbullet4myvalentine]

N1, were you brought up by people who thought that women are less than human and exist only to serve men? Or did you read bullshit like Robert Bly at a formative age?
It;s a very ver y GOOD thing that women are able to dump tosspots like you and stick two fingers up at you/ Because gradually this means men like you will become extinct as no woman will want to help you procreate.

[TheFirstLiffey]

N1, It's sensible, practical and mature of your x to not to try and talk to you. What would be the point?

Would you listen???

Would she be able to reason with you??

Do you have a flexible, compassionate side she could appeal to??

You are utterly incapable of seeing things from her perspective.

You can be 'hard' (whatever that means) in decisions that affect you alone and nobody else, but you had no right to be 'hard' with regard to things that affected your x's life/future.

You shouldn't even try to control somebody else's, and for some reason this is the bit that controlling men fail to grasp.

Why should she communicate with her bitter, deluded, angry, selfish, mean, martyred x when she can delegate that nightmare to a solicitor???

It's YOUR life N1, and you're wasting it being a bitter, deluded and mean.

Well, that really shows her ey? You're the winner, right? cos you hate her more than she hates you, and you're more wronged than she's been wronged, so you're the biggest martyr? You have justice on your side? WHO says? YOU?????

[N1]

It's not a fear of understanding myself. I know what I am capable of.

I could work myself out of debt if I focused only on that, but if I moved back into higher earning again, the CSA would steal the money from me and give it to the ex, who would use the money to fund any possible tactic to try to drive a wedge between my son and I. If I wanted to maintain the contact time that I and my son have, I would have to take matters back to court (again) and in turn loose my job.

I do accept that things are not good or ideal, but its the best I can make of a bad situation.

Ex's attitude is usually "don't talk to me, talk to my lawyer". Recently this has changed.

Fortunately for my son, he (through me) gets to know all of the paternal family and most of the maternal family. Ex seems to be pushing them away (long story). I didn't see the maternal family for 4 years and when I did, they were over the moon to meet and see and hear updates about my son.

Ex's attitude is along the lines of - if you don't dance to her tune then push you out. I refused to dance to her tune when she left me so she tried to push me out of her life (nothing to bad with that, but she tried to push me out of my son's life and that's where all my costs came from and also shaped me the way I appear to be.

The people who know me personally might disagree with some comments by people who don't know me, but you could say the same.

I am not trying to divert from the topic.