International School in PARIS.

[ILoveBIS]

Hello.

We are a Japanese family living in a smaller city in France. My daughter is turning 16 this year and currently goes to an international school in the city. She is taking the IGCSE exams this May/June and after her exams, we are moving to Paris.

She wants to continue learning in English after moving to Paris, and is interested in switching to IB from British system although it is not fully decided yet.
So we are looking for an international school in Paris which has IB programme. If there is a good school which does A-level, we are interested in knowing it as well.
So which International School is the best in Paris?

Thanks in advance.

I think it's important to speak to parents who have children at these schools, ILoveBIS, although there will be wildly differing opinions. I had a friend whose children had done four years at BSP, then back into the UK state system. She didn't feel that they had received a particularly good education at BSP - their French was virtually non-existent, and there were areas where they were not up to the standard of their UK classmates. In contrast, another friend loved BSP, and her DD went to a selective boarding school on leaving and is doing well (but again has non-existent French). My friend whose children went to ISP, as I said, one of her two went to Cambridge and the other is at (I think) an Ivy League college in the US. Have a look around the schools, and ask where the children go to when they leave (most schools will tell you this quite freely, or it will be on the website), and see which your daughter feels will suit her best.

The standard to which French is taught in English-medium schools in Paris and the Paris suburbs is highly correlated to the proportion of DC arriving from French-medium or bilingual schools. There are virtually no French MT DC at EIB-VH, BSP or ISP but there have always been some at Marymount and ASP. ASP has a very long tradition of taking in DC who move to English-medium education for the last 5 years or so of schooling after having been in bilingual schools. All those bilingual DC raise the overall standard of French teaching.

I don't know about the other schools, Bonsoir, but French was the second largest nationality after American at ASP. Americans were around 40% and French 20%+. A lot of rich French parents tend to go for ASP - DD1 was at school with the DD of the head honcho at Gal Laf, and the DD of a well known French sleb. DD2's French friends tend to be seeing out middle school at ASP and then moving on for high school to either UK or US boarding schools. We had one of DD2's friends visiting this weekend, and I asked her father whether he wouldn't consider a French university. He said, very dismissively, possibly for his DD's postgrad, but she would go to either Ivy League or Oxbridge for her first degree. I am quite sure she will, too, as she is vvv bright and he will pay!

There isn't really a route into French HE unless you have the French bac so French parents who decide to send their DC to ASP are basically making the decision that their DC will go to university outside France.

Do French unis not accept the IB, Bonsoir? They must do, surely? Otherwise there would be no international students in France. A Romanian friend of mine did her first degree in France, but a Romanian bac is probably quite similar to a French one (and she went to a French medium school in Romania).

Countries have agreements with France and quotas to access university, that much is true. But any of the prestigious/selective prepas and sought after courses reject anything but the French lycée course and bac (even the EB, against which discrimination is illegal, poses serious problems). A French national living in France who doesn't have the French bac? Forget it.

Yes I should hear opinions of parents who currently have their kids in those schools, but it is very hard. I've made same threads in four different forums, one of which was Japanese expats forums, yet I've only received a response on this one. My husband has colleagues with children who live in Paris, but their kids are all either much younger than 16 or staying in Japan.

I do expect to hear various opinions. In fact, my daughter loves her current international school and their teaching style fits her well, even better than her previous high school in Japan which is said to be one of the best. However, at the same time, half of her classmates and ex-classmates say that the school is horrible (she does agree though, the equipment is poor as the school is really small (7 students in her class).). I personally don't think the school is the best place to continue her education, especially equipment wise (it seems to be really poor for her interest, science), but equally I am happy with the school as long as my daughter enjoys the school and succeeds to achieve good grades in her IGCSEs.
Well, at the end, even if a school has good reputation, it will all come down to compatibility I guess.

My daughter's already checked the websites in every corner. She said the university list was only available on the ISP website, which had a few good universities on it. Other websites were not as informative, sadly.

The most frustrating thing is that we were informed our transfer just before the Ski Holidays, and unluckily, our region's holidays are at the same time as Paris. If our region's holidays were a bit earlier or later than Paris we would've gone to the schools and checked them out ourselves but now those schools are closed and after the holidays my daughter will be busy revising for May/June IGCSEs and my husband will be busy with work.

Well, about French universities, I don't think my daughter is interested in studying in French. If she did, she would've entered French a high school already. She is just interested in being able to speak or write French at a decent level, as it's her third language after all. She often wishes that she could come to France a bit earlier though, looking at little kids in her school. They become fluent French speakers just by being friends with French kids (grammar is horrible but it can be fixed quite easily as they get proper education).

IloveBIS - facilities and infrastructure at schools in Paris intra muros can be very disappointing. This is true even of schools with excellent bac results and comes down to a chronic and irreversible shortage of space and a chronic long-term shortage of investment.

You need to look at bac results and university destinations very carefully. Some schools (eg the Lycée International de Saint-Germain en Laye, the Sections Internationales de Sèvres) are honest and give detailed information year by year for all pupils. Other schools give lists of "recent university destinations" which are an amalgam of several years' destinations and are not comprehensive. My opinion - which is quite well-informed given that I have advised Terminale pupils on university entrance in the UK from all the main Paris private schools plus the "top two" state lycées over several years - is that the quality of advice on university applications in most schools is pretty ropy and the pupils who do the best have parents who are heavily involved in the process in many shapes and forms.

On the point of French nationals with IB the only way you can get away with it is if you had been in the international system and came back after seconde. Even then French nationals who studied outside France at any point have huge difficulty explaining that to employers, especially the State... The bac is somehow irreversibly tied in with French identity (and the bac S at that). So by default most IB schools have a lower proportion of native French speakers. The exception to that would probably be EABJM which keeps options open so some French speakers do opt for IB either because they don't want to study in France or because they wouldn't cope with the science. Why would schools who aren't catering for the expat population invest in it? The French pupils who can afford to study abroad can usually afford the fees at international school. And the cycle continues!

But as bonsoir says their is no space in Paris and very little investment so you need to moderate expectations of equipment etc. It would be very wise to take a day to go and see them.

... which ties in with my earlier point - that the IBO does not and will not invest in France because there is no way on earth that take-up among French nationals of the IB is going to be anything other than minuscule, given that the IB excludes French nationals from French HE and not having the French bac can throw up all sorts of headaches for French people further down the line.

here you are this is where the Class of 2013 at ASP went on to study. Quite a mixed bag, but Ivy League and RG are there.

Glad I'm not French, although more and more UK schools appear to be reverting to A levels only, so we are as parochial as they are!

and this is for BSP and their leavers from last year.

Can you take a day out to look at all three schools, IloveBIS? I don't know where you are, but it should be feasible to look at all three in a day, if you start early. When we were looking at schools we did BSP, ISP and Marymount in one day and ASP on the next day. Obviously Marymount is no use to you.

ASP does the American thing of listing all acceptances (offers) whereas BSP does it the British way and lists final destination.

On the reverting to A-levels only (about which I Knowles nothing) - I think it's hard for schools to run two different leaving examination syllabi simultaneously. I know of a UK grammar that has moved over to all IB.

"the best have parents who are heavily involved in the process in many shapes and forms."
We both parents have absolutely no idea about education in foreign countries. We recently memorised the name "IGCSE"...yes we are at this level. My daughter had taken exams to enter her primary school, which was supposed to be one of the best primary schools in Japan (and has high school with it too). So we did all the applications etc for that time, but it was Japanese system that is completely different from other countries and also it was when my daughter was 6 or so. That experience won't be any help at all, I assume.

I doubt that the equipment of my daughter's new school would be worse than that of her current school though. I hope, at least. About 15k euro per year, and only 7 people per class... Space - 12 people maximum in the science lab, and her English class is like 8 people maximum, so yeah I'd be surprised if it gets any smaller. I know that Paris is very small, but it's the capital of one of the biggest countries in the world after all, wouldn't there be enough people that want to join the school...? If space is really the problem, do ASP and BSP have better equipment that schools in Paris centre?

Honestly, we got no idea which universities are good. Well, of course we know Japanese universities and Oxbridge, Ivy League, and a couple in France. I bet universities in capitals tend to be good too. But other than that, we don't know much about them...we got to learn from that I guess

And yes, we want to take a look at those schools, but as I said it will be very difficult. May/June are IGCSE exams, after exams we are moving to Paris, and in September School is starting. Between June and September, schools will be closed, and before IGCSE it will be March or April - preferably April...hmm we will try our best.
Well we are in the Sud Ouest so it's like 700km away.
Actually, EABJM applicant condition sheet said to participate in a school tour with the applicant+parents so we will have to at some point.

Can you not come up to Paris to take a look at schools without your DH and your DD? You might be able to at least exclude one or two/make a short list if you visited ASP/BSP/ISP/EABJM over a couple of days.

I'm the freest of the three but the worst at languages.

Believe me, all those schools will be used to families who don't speak either English or French well!

Hi, IloveBIS, you do sound like you're feeling the pressure just a bit.

As bonsoir says, no need to speak any French to come look at BSP, ASP, EABJM or ISP. They will all speak excellent English. ISP also has some Japanese staff.

I would urge you to come because you will find huge differences in premises and facilities between BSP and ASP on the one hand (outside the city, roomy and well equipped) and ISP/EABJM (comparatively cramped, creative use of space, frequent use of local municipal amenities for sports).

On the pedagogy side there are significant differences too, but you should get a good feel for this when you visit, even if they don't allow you to peer into classrooms (which they normally should).

Have you tried consulting the Good Schools Guide International? They look at each school and give a synthesis of the feedback gleaned from current parents. They have full reports on some of the best schools which run to about seven pages, I think.

Best of luck!

UK schools are reverting because they expected stunning A level scores to translate to stunning IB scores and it didn't work. Partly because of the difficulties of balancing two exam structures in terms of time tabling limiting choice so and partly because teaching and learning for the IB is very different to A-levels. It takes 7 years for an On programme to bed in properly because you need to start incorporating MYP teaching methods form year 7 (or year 9 for CE schools). Then you want 5 years of good results with an establish programme.

In some ways the IB should be an easier transition for schools accustomed to the French system but the bac has a stranglehold on the psyche.

You can do a lot of weeding out before going. Ask the schools for their scores as well as university destinations, and a breakdown of the individual scores of the subjects your DD is interested in. How many 7s, 6s, 5s etc in each subject? How many are achieving 36+ overall? How long have staff been teaching IB? Are there any changes they can Forsee for her key subjects in the next 2 years?

UK schools are reverting because they expected stunning A level scores to translate to stunning IB scores and it didn't work.

Very interesting.

DSS1 reading Economics at Bristol has met a lot of first years who did the IB. The lowest score he has encountered is 42/45 and there seem to be plenty of 44s around, though he hasn't found a 45 yet!

The UK's IB rating is supposed to be "significantly above" the world average. Presumably this is because it is offered almost solely by selective/private schools?

Pretty much private only. The state schools who introduced it have mostly phased it out. You can find the odd state school or college but the private schools are the ones with a) purchasing power to attract teachers with QTS and IB experience or b) the ability to employ UQTs or OTTs who have taught in the international sector. Again it's partly a matter of investment. The other side is that IB scores aren't counted in league tables based on A-levels so if you're pushing your brightest to do IB you're losing their points which for state schools leaves you the second tier doing A-levels and your score drops meaning you pull the programme to get the brighter students back on the tables or you don't push your brightest students to do it and your IB scores look less than spectacular and the programme gets pulled because obviously you aren't doing it well enough. Private schools have less pressure - sure they have to justify to parents and shareholders but they're already at an advantage and have no real agenda to push either qualification so the results compare better.

Add to that the EPQ some exam boards are now offering alongside A-levels and the fact that unis tend to make very high IB offers (slightly better since the A-level A* came in) and you find uptake dropped after that first enthusiastic surge so it became even less viable to offer it.

I wonder whether the take-up/attractivity of the IB doesn't depend somewhat on the local market ie the standard national school leaving exam? For example, at ISB and ISA there is a sizeable contingent of national pupils who move to the IB system because they were failing to achieve in the national system and the IB is perceived as an "easier" route to get a university-convertible grade. In the UK the IB is widely perceived as "more challenging" than 3 A-levels and would therefore attract candidates likely to achieve highly.