So WTF will happen if I take the children out of the jurisdiction without EXTOAD's consent?

[Karenthetoadslayer]

We are atm trying very hard to negotiate a settlement with exP. He has been very obstructive so far and purposely refused to deal with matters, such as the sale of the family home until the summer holidays, so we cannot go away. He suddenly became very active on 21st July. He has also forbidden us to go and see our family in mainland Europe. It would be great if the children could at least visit their grandparents while I am dealing with matters, as opposed to having to sit at home. I have signed undertakings to be available for the sale of the house, so I am stuck here, because we are in occupation, but the children should not have to be.

So what would happen if I chose to ignore him and put the kids on a plane so they can have a great time on the beach with their grandparents who have a seaside home? Would I get arrested?

[Karenthetoadslayer]

I don't need permission for DS who is 14. DS was born in 1999 and although exp is named on his birth certificate, he does not have automatic parental rights. I don't know when this change in the law came into effect, but certainly when DD was born. For DD who is 10, I need permission.

It depends if your Ex's have parental rights and when the DCs were born.

I have never undersigned joint parental agreements or whatever this is called.

So if it wasn't out of loyalty for his sister, DS would be on granddad's yacht right now.

[Letthemtalk]

And how on earth are border control going to know whether or not your dcs father has parental responsibility? If you just tell them you don't know the father, that he doesn't have parental responsibility, that he's dead etc etc, how are they going to know any different? If you present a fake letter of permission how are they going to know?

[Sarahplane]

Thanks. He's named on her birth certificate but she was born before the law changed in Scotland so he doesn't have automatic parental rights as we weren't married.

Sorry for the thread hijack Karen. Very shit that your ex is happy for the kids to miss out on a holiday because he's being a prick. Hope you get something sorted through the courts soon so he can't do this in future.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

May be it's also a personal risk assessment. As far as I am concerned, I will make the application for DD and carry the court paperwork with me. Some more court paperwork - I should acquire a handbag sized Louis Vuitton folder for court orders. [frivolous]

[Greengrow]

1. I think it's best to keep them here. The main aim in famil proceedings is to keep amicable, bend over backwards even if you hate their father just to accommodate particularly in a difficult period like this summer when you aren't allowed to leave and are concentrating on selling the home. Why ship the children abroad? Many many children are in the UK all summer and not seeing grandparents and it doesn't hurt them.
   

1. The father might get a prohibited steps order to stop the children going abroad even if you find a relative to fly over here and to take them abroad. ( think you said above you are not allowed to leave the UK as you have to stay here to sell the house).
   

1. However in 10 years of being divorced |I have never once been asked for any kind of consent and that includes flights to the US, Central America and all over Europe (they have my surname). I have not bothered to take any kind of letter with me and it's never been raised as an issue and their father has no problem wherever I take them on holiday anyway. However a lot of mumsnetters often do say they are asked for consent letters so best to be on the safe side.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Greengrow thank you for your comment. Why should the children have to sit here all summer while there are trades in the house and not have a nice time if they can? Why should they have to stay here? I am completely not getting your line of argumentation. Oh and we are not even English. They would be allowed to go home for the summer, not abroad.

This is not an amicable situation in the first place, as their father got evicted by the family court due to domestic violence and has not had contact with the children since.

I was just fed up with his ongoing obstructiveness and making life hard for the oh so spoiled children who are not allowed their usual jet set lifestyle have witnessed and suffered domestic abuse from their father.

Please read my last post, too.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Also, it does hurt them to have to sit in the house while I am preparing legal documents, having meetings and discussiions with my legal team and attend court hearings and mediation meetings. Your post is not helpful.

[isthisanacidtest]

Karen waht do you mean by "trades in the house"? You might want to rephrase as it sounds a bit derogatory.

I understand that you are angry but the law is there to protect you and your children. It cuts both ways and if your Ex wanted to go on a holiday he too would have to get your permission.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Why is it derogatory to say "trades"?

I do think, however, it is not appropriate ("derogatory"??) to suggest "You might want to rephrase". This discussion is not about trades and I am not now writing a massive post about not wanting to offend trades, as this is quite clearly not my intention anyway.

[BlackWings]

I was just about to ask the same question as letthemtalk. Ds's dad doesn't have PR and I've never been asked about him whilst travelling with ds but if I was how do you prove the other parent doesn't have PR? I could say he died (which he may as well have), how could they prove otherwise?

[Karenthetoadslayer]

It is really interesting that there is so much uncertainty on this clearly very important issue, as everyone can be randomly stopped by border control.
How old is your DS, BlackWings and are you in touch with his dad?

Without being morbid would one have to carry the death certificate?

[Karenthetoadslayer]

And if it's just a computer printout, how do border control know it is genuine, that is a completely valid point too.

Or are border control informed by the father / parent who decides the child cannot leave the country and this would get picked up at pass control? But we are usually just waving the passports at them, it is only when we come back to the UK that there are proper controls as we are going outside Schengen.

[BlackWings]

Ds is 6, neither of us have seen his dad since he was born and I've travelled abroad a fair few times, never been asked about his dad. When I got his passport I had to give them his name but I made it clear he wasn't on the birth certificate and didn't have PR. They couldn't have cared less.
I will probably carry his birth certificate when travelling in future as I guess that's the only proof I have. Ds also has my name which helps I guess.
But as others have said, anyone could carry fake documents/letters, I can't see how foreign officials would be able to tell.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

If you carry his birth certificate and his dad is not on the birth certificate (lucky you) then this should not be a problem for you anyway.

I would carry a copy of the birth certificate though, not the original, or a certified copy.

[Jux]

So, it sounds, to an extent, that it could also depend on how vindictive the other parent feels if they find out you have taken the children away without their permission. (In Toad's case, I would assume very vindictive, and also throw in "rubbing hands gleefully".)

Sorry, Karen. I hope the children do get a holiday; but, if not, next year it will be different and all the sweeter for it.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Hi Jux yes they did DF paid for a camping trip to the IOW complete with ferry to get into the holiday spirit. I took DS out of school two days early so Toad would not notice or suspect that we were away.

He found out somehow and all hell broke loose including aggressive letters from his solicitor, accusing me to have taken the children out of the jurisdiction, but I hadn't and we wrote back that this behaviour was considered to be ongoing domestic abuse and controlling behaviour.

In any event, the kids had a great time, freedom and we got away from it all for a while. They look so relaxed and happy on the pictures!

[WellWhoKnew]

Oh, just seen this. I can answer the 'BUT HOW DO THEY KNOW?'.

Border Control are understandably very well trained in detecting nervous behaviour. You are 'logged' into and out of the country so your normal travel patterns are known.

They do not 'know' who has permission and who hasn't. They assess each person's demeanor and the more experienced they are: the better they are for judging you.

Therefore if you've never been stopped for taking your kids on holiday without full permission from the other parent, if they have shared-PR, this is largely because you didn't realise you needed it: your body language being less than nervy, wouldn't signal anything is amiss: after all, you don't know that you're doing anything wrong.

And secondly it's because nothing has flagged up e.g. the left behind 'parent' hasn't asked the courts/police for an 'all ports' notification.

I think in Karen's case, she would have been very unwise to take the children to their country of origin, as Toad theoretically could instigate a charge of abduction. Whatever his motivation for doing so, he could. The children are domiciled (e.g. live and schooled here) here until the courts give permission for them to leave, irrespective of what nationality they hold.

However, if you are knowingly defying the 'wishes' (nefarious, ambivalent or otherwise) of the other parent, you are running the risk of being accused of child abduction if you are caught, especially if you are visiting their/your country of origin.

The chances of being caught are low - but the consequences can be very severe, including loss of parental responsibility.

You decide whether it's worth it.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

I am so impressed WWK.

Quite true, we have to grin and bear it until I can afford to make the application for a residence order.

Social Services have noted his ongoing controlling behaviour on the children's file, especially as I volunteered undertakings that I would not permanently remove them from the jurisdiction and was happy to give him the address where we were going to go - my parents. Thing is that he is not allowed to contact my parents either and he is confined to remote controlling the children and I.

[Karenthetoadslayer]

I am not keen on getting accused of child abduction and losing my CRB certificate. He knows that. It was just spite and control.

[WellWhoKnew]

Yep, best not make it easy for him is my advice. I too have a husband who is doing his damnedest to make life hard. I can rage about it (and indeed do) or I can get creative about it, like you did: Having an IOW holiday was still great, compromise or otherwise:

He can't spoil a good time if you're determined to have one!

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Oh yes, as soon as he does something untoward I make sure it gets put on file. Domestic abuse is hard to prove and you have to keep your paperwork in order.

[Jux]

Karen, you are a fantastic person! I think your children are incredibly lucky

[Karenthetoadslayer]

Just read through the CAFCASS brochure.