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Legal matters

child-producing breast-feeding legal thing

106 replies

IceBeing · 26/01/2014 22:07

I have promotion criteria that involve 'international reputation' which is often rated by the number of international conferences one has attended. I have attended none in the last 3 years due to pregnancy and then breast feeding.

Is there any legal argument to be made that this is discriminatory?

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Paintyfingers · 27/01/2014 18:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 27/01/2014 18:55

The stage of the process is irrelevant. What matters is having someone in that meeting banging the table for you. This would be true even if you'd done a conference a month. You appear to be convinced that your application will be dinged because you've not gone to conferences, but you have no evidence that this is how it will go, and your apparent argument that other people's cases ought not to take account of the number of conferences they've gone to because that's not fair to you seems frankly quixotic. Focus on you and your supporters, no one else.

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Clouddancer · 27/01/2014 19:16

iwant, I applied to have my research outputs down one because of bf, and got nowhere. So, just because the criteria are theoretically there, and you fill them, does not mean you will get the outputs reduced, iyswim. Fortunately, I had the required number, I was worried about quality of my last one, rather than quality, so it was actually fine in the end.

But to be honest, it is not just travel, it is being up every 90 minutes in the night, working at the break of dawn as you need to be at school events, nursery settling in, all those things we do to balance home and work. But yes, gather your supporters, get feedback on your application, and do your best. And if at first you don't succeed, get more feedback and try again.

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Clouddancer · 27/01/2014 19:18

I was worried about quality rather than quantity, sorry, the perils of multi-tasking

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RalphRecklessCardew · 27/01/2014 19:24

IceBeing,

I didn't mean that you should go to the union to get them to complain on your behalf. I meant that a good union rep should be able to advise you how best to put your case and maybe what pitfalls to avoid.

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IceBeing · 27/01/2014 21:28

okay this thread really got off on the wrong foot for which I will admit partial responsibility. I have had two years of sitting on equality diversity committees in which people keep on trotting out the same 'well it hasn't disadvantaged me' shit in order to stone wall actual progress towards a fairer system. So being told by the first poster that there is 'always an option' really pissed me off. There isn't 'always an option' - boss was lucky she had the option.

Secondly I tried but perhaps failed to make it clear from the OP that I am interested in people who have knowledge of the legal situation. I am in fact not interested in the best way to beat the unfair system I currently face. I am entirely interested in improving the system itself and making it less discriminatory.

I have not failed in my promotion attempts - I haven't even made one and nor will I, while the current system prevails. I want the system to be improved and made fairer more than I want a couple of 1000 pounds extra in my pay packet.

So while it is nice that people have put thought and consideration into suggestions for how I might secure promotion, that isn't really what I was looking for.

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IceBeing · 27/01/2014 21:30

hmm thank you reduction for deciding I am unworthy of promotion (in a role you don't even know) based on a few lines of text on a forum.

I should perhaps pass that along to the promotions meeting and save everyone some time. Hmm

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IceBeing · 27/01/2014 21:35

cloud that is really concerning that you had problems with outputs. For all the flaws in promotions process our uni ran the REF exercise impeccably. In fact in some ways that is even more frustrating. Everything for REF was done so very by the book. All information was treated with great respect and privacy was paramount. Only 1 or 2 key people even know who was put in and with how many outputs.

So why when it comes to promotion is it suddenly a free for all involving candidates having the details pawed over by everyone and their dog? Why were reductions in outputs handled so sensitively but in the promotions process it is all who has the bigger dick?

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Clouddancer · 27/01/2014 22:26

I think the problem with the promotion thing is that you also need external referees, and if you are not at conferences, and symposia meeting with, collaborating with good quality people, then how do you build your reputation and contacts? Sure, you can correspond with people internationally, you can exchange papers, but then it feels really odd to suddenly ask for a reference. These are the kind of relationships you need to build up.

I am not going to say too much more about my own experience, but I am in a Russell group one, so we are supposed to be thought-leaders. I do want to apply for promotion because I am a single parent to 2 dc, so I need the money, but also I have worked over and above for so long, I am no longer doing it for the love of it. People contribute in different ways, and we take students from all backgrounds, so we need a diverse staff. Finally, the people I see at my institution trying to change things are a handful of senior women, and if women don't apply, or make the arguments based on what we have contributed, who else will? There is some momentum with Athena Swan, so I think it is a good time to have the debate. Equally, I am fairly demoralised to find it is 2014, and the debate still needs to be had.

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IceBeing · 28/01/2014 00:08

cloud yes I agree with what you are saying. Networking is still so important..too important imho now that journals are international and available on line etc.

I think you should absolutely fight the fights you need to - I have the luxury of not caring about promotion but I certainly understand this doesn't apply to many. I think there is REAL pressure atm from Athena Swan....all sorts of things are suddenly up for discussion that wouldn't have been 5 years ago. It is sad when Athena committees are only made up of women...it sort of undermines the whole thing!

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TheBossOfMe · 28/01/2014 03:54

IceBeing It's your kind of behaviour that can kill the chances of other women, not mine, simply because your argument is so illogical that it gives ammunition to the misogynists that think that baby-rearing turns women's brains to mush.

Right now, your argument reminds me of a small child stamping its feet and saying "there's no point trying because I can't do it anyway" and "it's not fair" with very little evidence of any fact-based argument to back the position up, or indeed, little clear evidence that you fully understand the process.

A few examples that leap out are:

  1. The "sum" that you talk about the promotions meetings using - you don't appear to be clear as to how that works. So, if, for example, the equation considers the last 3 years in totality, and makes no adjustment for a period of maternity leave, then, yes, there might be a case for discrimination to be made. If, on the other hand, it treats periods immediately before an after maternity as continuous, ie removing a period where you cannot earn "points" from consideration, then where is the discrimination. You would need to be very clear on the mechanism for the "sum"


  1. Talking about not comparing candidates only makes sense in a situation where the number of positions open for promotion are not limited - ie everyone who meets the minimum criteria can gain promotion. In a context where number of positions open for promotion are limited, of course you compare candidates - it is simply not "real world" to think otherwise. Likewise, there is nothing illegal in doing so.


  1. You want dispensation granted as a result of personal circumstances, but are not prepared to disclose what the circumstances are. Everyone, regardless of age, gender, or reproductive status, has to declare the circumstance which they believe grants them dispensation, and have to evidence that circumstance. There is nothing "gendered" about such behaviour - men get highly embarrassing illnesses too, you know. I'm not sure why you think any employer should just be expected to take someone's word as fact in such matters. If you know of any who do, please let me know, because I quite fancy having next Tuesday off without having to give any reason or having to take it as holiday.


  1. Saying that nobody expects to be out of commission for 2 years as a result of having a baby is simply not true. Many women have reasons for knowing they would have a hard time conceiving, requiring treatment which is hugely invasive, and then have an extremely hard pregnancy (Hyperemesis to 7 months, oh I remember that well). And many women are then off for a year afterwards on maternity leave. Your reasons for being work limited for 2 years may have been different, but the reality of career interruption can hardly have been a surprise. Being limited in work delivery for 2 years is a fact for many women that anyone with a brain and serious career ambitions needs to consider as a possibility as a possibility, rather than being "oh whoops" about the fact that it happens. It's called family planning for a reason.


  1. You seem to be constructing an argument that lack of attendance at conferences means that promotion cannot be secured. Yet I see nothing in the information given that says this is true. Are you saying that someone who attends 2 conferences a year and publishes 2 papers would automatically gain promotion over someone who published 6 papers, 12 articles and 4 book chapters? If so, then you might have a case from a legal standpoint if you could palpably demonstrate that the papers etc carried equal to more weight to the conferences. But you aren't arguing that with any great clarity. And if you don't know, then shouldn't you have found out before having children so that you could adjust your situation accordingly? The adjustment has to be made on both the side of the employer and the employee.


Your argument is not advancing the cause of women. Woolly thinking and "wah wah wah, treat me as special because I'm a woman, and it doesn't matter that I haven't fulfilled any of the criteria, I had a baby, so iIshould get that promotion" is what keeps us down.

As does every woman who doesn't go for promotion after having a baby - because men use it to argue that the investment in the early stages of a woman's career isn't worth it because they "go soft" as soon as they spawn. Do you have a partner? What are they doing to ensure the burden of sacrifice, if needed, is shared? Your post is all about you - and I have vastly more sympathy with LPs who may have far fewer choices than people with partners.

If you're not interested in promotion, then stop stirring the pot, and let those of us who are serious about our careers focus on doing what we need to do to ensure that having a baby doesn't disqualify us from success.

And as for me being lucky I can assure you that luck had very little to do with the career and family rearing decisions I made that have allowed me to travel with a nanny (or leave DD with DH whilst I travel). I made choices, and very considered ones:

  1. By the time I was 16, I was already thinking about what careers I wanted to do in the context of how family friendly the job might be able to be in years to come. So I didn't purse my dream career on the basis of unavoidable lack of family flexibility, and another one on the basis that it would never pay enough to give me the family/work management options that I knew were needed to be able to work post-family


  1. I spent earlier years in my job taking less attractive and often lower paid jobs simply because I could see how they could advance me up the ladder faster. Walk to work through armed checkpoints? Yes, done that. Had to evacuate the office because an armed battle involving police and army was raging less than a mile down the road and heading your way faster than you can run? Yup, that too. These jobs got me to the "golden position" I'm in now about 6-8 years before any of my UK-bound colleagues are even going to get close.


  1. Delaying having a family until I'd got to the "golden position" - even though I understood what this meant for my chances of having the large family that I sometimes craved.


  1. Limiting my family to 1 DC because its a lot easier to do it all when you only have 1 to do it for.


  1. Never accepting anything other than absolute co-parenting from my DH. We each took a years career break (saved for over a 10 year period, yes, you read that right, 10 years), which meant we could avoid long hours of childcare when DD was very young. We run our lives like a military operation to ensure that one of us is home every day by 5.30 to ensure that we have post-school quality time with DD. I get out of bed at 4.30 every morning to get shit done so that I can spend morning routine with DD. It's been hard, but we made choices to get to this status in our careers, and neither of us has had to "give up" anything other than perhaps our own hobby time and maybe a small amount of sanity in order to maintain them post children. Why couldn't your DH look after your child whilst you travelled? Is he not competent as a parent?


  1. Disclosing pregnancy related illness early on with a proactive plan of management already mapped out. Turned out to be a shit plan, but demonstrating that i had one and didn't just expect my employer to pick up the pieces won me a lot of friends and a lot of leeway when the HG hit like a steam train.


  1. Disclosing a very serious, very intimate, potentially life limiting illness to my employer in exactly the same way.


Very few of us have no choices. Just don't expect a Get Out of Jail Free card when those choices turned out not to be the best ones. I've made some shit choices, but I didn't expect anyone but me and DH to sort them out.

There are probably a 1,000,000 reasons why gender bias is holding women in academia back. Nothing you've written shows evidence of it in this instance. Construct a better argument, for the sake of all women who do want to get ahead, because half arsed nonsense just does us all a disservice.
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TheBossOfMe · 28/01/2014 03:55

Oh, and before you dismiss Athena committees because they are made up of all women, I suggest you do some research into why that is the case. The debate about gender representation of such committees is fairly well worn. And has been debated by women much smarter than you or I.

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MellowAutumn · 28/01/2014 07:21

Slam dunk :)

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Paintyfingers · 28/01/2014 08:07

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Reduction · 28/01/2014 08:10

Boss you're an excellent example of why there is the glass ceiling actually. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing - we all need the best most committed people in the top jobs.

Very many (most?) women aren't willing or able to live like that after DC. I know from my own experience that I simply didn't want that once DS1 was born and like you say it would have been even harder after DS2. I therefore changed my expectations of my career. I'm still successful in most people's eyes but not in quite the way I would have been without DC. I don't begrudge that at all. After-all men with children who carry on having work as their primary focus after Dc miss out on family life in a way I wasn't prepared to.

We all make choices everyday. I know of one very talented man who has never progressed beyond middle management because he's a committed volunteer youth sports coach. Despite people practically begging him to take promotions over the years he has always declined because he didn't think he could do both well enough.

If OP has been in a position where she has been unable or unwilling to fully fulfil the requirements of the role for 2 years why would anyone want her to be promoted? Promoting women when everyone can see it wasn't "right" isn't going to help anyone. If you've been (understandably) off your game for 2 years Op but are now back on it, it won't take long for you to get back to where you think you should be. I agree with Boss that it's ridiculous to be complaining about discrimination when you don't know if there is any and using that as an excuse not to even try.

Boss, did you really consider motherhood when choosing your career at 16? I ask because a friend's daughter has just gone to work on the oil-rigs as a geo-physicist. I wanted to be a geologist but didn't pursue it because at the time women weren't allowed down mines by law or on oil-rigs because of the lack of suitable seeping arrangements! I am thrilled that she now can go but I did wonder how on earth she can continue if/when she has DC. Any careers' officer who voiced that (valid IMO) concern would be shot at dawn though, wouldn't they?

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Bohemond · 28/01/2014 08:35

We'll said Boss and Reduction

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LittleBearPad · 28/01/2014 08:37

Are you or are you not going for promotion OP. It isn't clear. You say you are in your OP but later seem to say you never have and won't until it's fair.

If you are seeking promotion If there are reasons to mitigate the requirements for international travel on your case then you need to tell someone. It doesn't mean it has to be discussed in the meeting. But you need a cheer leader. Any one does who goes through a similar process.

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Clouddancer · 28/01/2014 08:37

Am short of time, obv, but I think the this is what I did with my life approach can be counter-productive, because my response would feel like well, here is a list of disadvantage I faced, and quite frankly, I can't be bothered with that, who does that help? I think it is great that you were so focused and that you have a supportive DH, but for other people, it is not always about choices, unless you think I chose some of the things I have dealt with. But I really don't want to be personal.

So, let's stick to a couple of your other points. In an international level, research career, you simply cannot afford to take 2 years off, or you are 2 years behind. You have to keep reading and writing through your mat leave. There are ways of planning your publications to come out while you are off, but if you are not keeping up with your research, others will be; you will find that someone else has pipped you to the post. Simple. And all the planning in the world does not cover life events like repeat pregnancy loss, and the fact that in the end you have no idea if or when a baby will come, and there is no career allowance for the babies before 20 weeks that did not make it. Just an example.

Only having one child, all the female senior colleagues I know, bar 1, have 2-3 children. So, number of children is not a barrier to success. It is not a fact which men have to consider. So, surely, the question is how these women manage, and not, well, only have one?

Finally, we have men on our Athena Swan committee. I am thinking more of mentoring initiatives, etc, which have been set up by senior women for junior women. These are worthwhile because they recognise it is a gender issue, but there are ways through.

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Clouddancer · 28/01/2014 08:39

Sorry, my response was to boss, xpost as also getting children out the door so took ages to write

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TheBossOfMe · 28/01/2014 09:28

Paintyfingers - I was (perhaps a tad vociferously) responding the the, quite frankly, flippant and denigrating comment fromicebeing that my situation was down to just luck. Saying that things are just lucky demeans the hard work that women put into their careers, and the difficult choices that we make along the way. The luck I have had is that I have been lucky enough to avoid too much bad luck to derail my plans, if that makes any sense - although I have had more than my fair share. I appreciate others have rather more bad luck to deal with, and I thank heavens every day for the luck I do have. And I was also responding to what I felt was a rather needlessly insulting response to my post. I rather resent being told I hold women back. And I abhor rudeness - the OP has rather drip fed on this thread, since her original post was simply about pregnancy and breastfeeding and attending conferences.

And, yes, its a legal matters thread, which is why I was using my professional experience to advise on where her argument is currently falling down, and some of the things she would need to investigate before she would even have a chance of making a legal case. The union would absolutely be a very good first port of call - but even they, I think, would be hesitant to fight the good fight on behalf of someone who says they don't even want the promotion! At least half of my marathon post was advice on where she might want to investigate a bit more.

Reduction you are absolutely right, there are very few women (although growing numbers from what I can see in my own industry) who are prepared to make these life choices. But these are the choices that many men (who can often be childless to a much later age than women) make - so, right now, in the imperfect world we live in, women have to make those same career choices to expect to be treated equally. But there is hope - I increasingly see men who are not willing to make such choices, so maybe the whole game will change over the next few years. Hope springs eternal.

And yes, I did choose a career at 16 based on family - my DM gave up a brilliant career to be a SAHM, and was deeply, deeply unhappy as a result. Looking back now, I can see that she was depressed, massively so, and it had a huge impact on how I have chosen to live my life.

Clouddancer Re having only one child - I'm not that organised or energetic that I think I could achieve the balance (and balance is important for me) if I had more than one. I "outsource" much of my life - someone else buys my clothes for me, buys my food for me, book my holidays for me etc. But I don't outsource much of family life with DH or DD - so I drop her at school every morning, I frequently have lunch with her during the week, she comes to my office for a play after school sometimes, I've never missed a school play, or a parents evening, or a reading day, or any of the other things that matter to DD. She really is my world, and no career ever matches that for me! That's very much been a personal choice, and I fully understand that there are many women who manage with multiple children - I just know my own limitations!

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TheBossOfMe · 28/01/2014 09:32

PS - Op, you should wander over to the Feminism board. We may have had a bit of a difference of opinion on this thread, but there are some really smart women there who might be able to help you construct a case if there is one. There might be one, you just need to construct it better. There also fab flowery on the Employment Matters board, who's amazing at advice in such areas.

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IceBeing · 28/01/2014 09:59

As I said I do not need a case for promotion constructing. I am NOT applying for promotion. I am engaged in trying to make our promotions process fairer - because we have a serious imbalance in pay and promotions between men and women.

Saying that women have to make certain choices in order to succeed when men don't face the same choices is giving up in my opinion.

The only 'bad choice' I made was to have a child. Many people do this without serious impact on their careers (especially men but most women too). So it doesn't seem right at all to me that the luck of the draw on pregnancy and child birth should bar certain people from promotion. Not when they fulfil the criteria and it is only the misapplication of the process that is preventing them.

I would have no problem disclosing my medical history to key specific people - but the current process demands I disclose to everyone if I am going to be treated fairly. This is also what I am trying to change.

Do not worry - the BF thing is only one tiny aspect of the whole argument. It just occurred to me it might be a stronger argument that it is illegal to discriminate against people in certain specific ways (not taking into account disabilities etc) than to say that if you want more women then you have to stop using a process that bias's against them. Because there is always someone prepared to say that they thing women just aren't as good at science etc.

oh and slam dunk? What are you 12?

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TheBossOfMe · 28/01/2014 10:06

You have given not a single clear evidence-based argument for why the process is not fair.

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Clouddancer · 28/01/2014 11:09

I am engaged in trying to make our promotions process fairer - because we have a serious imbalance in pay and promotions between men and women.

I think this is certainly the case. In response to the specific point in your OP, about the international conferences, I think I would argue for preponderance across criteria or equivalence (i.e. what can be argued to have similar or substitute international reach and impact as attending a conference?). There must be a written policy document on promotions which makes the criteria explicit.

Related to that, I think your final point is a valid one. This approach may be strategically more successful, if you argue that the criteria equally disadvantage a man who has caring responsibilities for ageing parents, for example. Now we all know that women are statistically more likely to fulfil these roles, but if it helps to get your argument accepted, then it is a pragmatic approach to take.

Boss, yes, my comments were not specifically about your choice, more that I find it helpful to consider that senior women where I work do have more than one child, so it is theoretically possible to do it. I can't afford to outsource my life, apart from office hours childcare, so I do most of it myself, and there is a balance to be struck between 'success' professionally and personal/family wellbeing. I accept that I will not progress as fast as others, but not that I should not progress at all, simply because I am a woman with two children and no family support, who (at the moment) can't travel for work. The not being able to travel is, in my field, a real disadvantage. That said, I would rather have my children than the fast career progression, and that is a decision I consciously made, not at 16 (as I was naive enough to think we had equality), but at 30, when it was clear to me we did not and this was a choice I had to make (children or professorship).

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Potol · 28/01/2014 11:21

But the 'luck of the draw' could have happened under any circumstances- you could have fallen down the stairs and hurt your back. And not been able to travel internationally.

Yes, only women can give birth and be pregnant but most policies are designed to cater to the majority (including the majority of women), and many women do get pregnant, BF (I did it for a year, going back to work as a Lecturer at 7 months), give birth etc. If you can't, then you need to speak to your line manager as the problem is ongoing, i.e. during the time you were not on mat leave but incapacitated in other ways, about what you could have done to make up in other ways. You don't have to wait for two years to do this- you could have spoken to your HoD while you were back at work but not travelling internationally. (Also, as an aside, there are 'international' conferences within the UK you could have attended perhaps? I don't know your field so I can't comment).

But what strikes me is that while being aware of the promotion criteria and facing a difficulty in meeting them (not being able to travel internationally because of illness or family commitments is not exclusive to women) it doesn't appear from your replies that you sought ongoing solutions to them. If you did, and these were rebuffed, my apologies. But kicking up a fuss right at the time of promotions without having raised these concerns earlier seems counter productive.

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