child-producing breast-feeding legal thing

[IceBeing]

I have promotion criteria that involve 'international reputation' which is often rated by the number of international conferences one has attended. I have attended none in the last 3 years due to pregnancy and then breast feeding.

Is there any legal argument to be made that this is discriminatory?

[horsetowater]

Sorry - you are not saying this (now), but your institution is.

[horsetowater]

www.ecu.ac.uk/our-projects/gender-charter-mark

If anyone can sort this out, Athena ought to be able to.

My daughter didn't want to join the science club at school and when I asked her why she said 'it's just for boys really'. You are kind of saying the same thing Icebeing. I thought this was the 21st Century!

[IceBeing]

ha no not from MN! From the athena review panel. Kind of a WTF?? doesn't that cause problems?

everysilver no i totally agree - and to be honest it possibly would have gotten more backs up than it helps to point out the legalities.

We already have a 'doing it because HR say so ' vibe about many things which in reality are there to protect people.

[Everysilverlining]

OK I give up. I was trying to help, from a professional perspective with over 15 years specialist knowledge of employment and education law. I accept I am cynical, I accept that I may well be saying something you don't want to hear. I also believe and accept that the system is faulty. But on the legal matters board I wanted to gvie the perspective of an admittedly slightly jaded lawyer about the problem with this area of law (both on the straight legal basis, but also on the funding issues) and suggest the law was not the way to approach this problem to achieve the result which the OP wants. there are better ways than law to do this.

[horsetowater]

Excellent - when you say 'external feedback' you don't mean mumsnet do you?

[IceBeing]

yes this was initially an appeal for more legal information than I had...but not to apply it - just to persuade for change.

So it turns out that we got some external feedback on the appropriateness of our promotions process so I have a much stronger hand than I thought.

I am genuinely excited! I think we might do this - and sooner rather than later.

[horsetowater]

Silverlining - Discrimination only works if you are persoanlly put at a disadvantage (because it would be indirect)

OP has been put at a personal disadvantage. She says she hasn't but her post shows in great detail that there are systems set up within her organisations which mean a whole section of society are excluded from career progression.

I'm not saying anyone should take legal action, just trying to point out that the Law is behind her whichever route she takes.

I personally think sticking your neck out without full knowledge of her legal rights is far more risky.

And, as I pointed out earlier, legal aid is still viable for cases of discrimination.

The European Court is particularly useful for institutional inequality but obvs as a last resort.

Information is power. Cynicism is the enemy of progress.

[Everysilverlining]

I'm sorry but I think that anything legal is the wrong course of action here. Discrimination only works if you are persoanlly put at a disadvantage (because it would be indirect). You say you have not been discriminated against. If so there is not legal route to bring a claim. Maybe the equality commission would look at it, but if they don't this had the potential to trun into a very expensive issue which is a battle. I can't think of a solicitor I know who would touch it however interesting it might be, or however right it might be, without lots of funds. Solicitors as a whole do not act because something is right, and most solicitors don't act because of the principle of the matter. It's an old adage but there are 3 cases which they are wary of. Thos of principle, those of justice and those about boundary disputes.

As such if you want to get this changed, forget the law, but engage in the argument, why it is unfair and how that could be addressed for the benefit of everyone. You are clearly bright so argue your case because it is right, not because the current system might be unlawful because it just as easily might not be.

[horsetowater]

Attagirl!

But tread carefully. :) Good luck.

[IceBeing]

horse yes I do see what you mean. I have no intention of letting the current situation continue. I hope that court action will not be necessary in getting things turned around. It may be that even the threat of court action isn't necessary but if it is then I will do it!

[horsetowater]

It's why we have a human rights Act and the EC of HR. It is so important that you get legal aid for it despite the cuts.

Perhaps you have to decide in your own mind whether or not you see it as a minor inconvenience and something that can be dealt with alone or something you want to fight for as a principle. It's easy for me to encourage you to fight the fight, I am on the sidelines - far harder for you of course, I understand that. I think I am just a little surprised that you are seeing it as a personal matter.

I realise it could put your career on the line but if others have also had a similar problem you might be able to put together a good case.

And as I said before, it's not as though you are trying to change the banking system, you are dealing with like-minded academics, people who actually think things through rather than think of profit. They would probably be horrified that their institution might be discriminating against anyone. As soon as you present this to them they will probably bend over backward to change the system.

I would worry that if you do it alone you risk sticking your neck out too far and they will find a way to exclude you further. What do you think their reaction would be if you proposed a different system without going through a legal route?

[horsetowater]

It is institutional discrimination. All women are being discriminated against potentially.

[IceBeing]

Okay I feel I should restate that I have not been discriminated against and have not in fact been through the process. This is about constructing and argument legal or otherwise that the process should be changed before we all end up in court rather than after.

Having said that, I do believe others have been knocked back inappropriately in various hard to prove ways....but this is primarily about fixing things for the future.

[horsetowater]

This is why I suggested taking a group action. It might be possible to go another route, insurance or union (as I previously also suggested) but whichever route you take it will help if you have other women alongside you making this claim. You never know you might even win and get compensation.

[horsetowater]

www.gov.uk/legal-aid

[Everysilverlining]

Legal aid.... No you don't. Not for an employment claim. Not these days there is no legal aid for almost anything. Much better off with either insurance to back you, or a union. Legal aid is very very difficult to get and employment lawyers as a whole don't touch it. And certainly not if you are on even a poor academic salary as however bad they are they won't give legal aid unless you are very very poor.

[horsetowater]

Muchado you get legal aid for discrimination. OP I am not barbed, believe me, sorry if I'm scaring you but you seem to be slightly minimising this.

It is discrimination at its finest. No I'm not a legal person, or an academic, nor do I have an issue with academics but I do think that of all the sectors this one ought to be free from discrimination.

If you don't take this further you would be letting yourself and womankind (no pressure) down.

[TheBossOfMe]

That CV passing round thing sounds hideous. Someone seeing my CV feels a bit like me to someone seeing a picture of me in a bikini - not exactly anything that you would specifically complain about, but personal enough to make me feel uncomfortable.

[muchadoaboutsomething]

The echr would not be the right court. It would go to an employment tribunal, and only if they got it wrong in law would it go up and up.... And a solicitor would only take such a case if they could see who was funding it. My dh can't afford my fees, well unless I pay for them.... Which is another issue and another debate. He's far cleverer and more qualified than me, but is paid so very little so he can't progress his career with international conferences etc unless my job is flexible, as it's my job that pays the bills and for the childcare we do use. So you don't want him in your comparisons.

[IceBeing]

yikes!

[Clouddancer]

random comma in there, sorry

[Clouddancer]

horse, that post comes across as quite barbed . Academics are not a breed with unifying features. Nor do they all tactically under-inform. Whatever issue, you have got with some academics, please leave it away from here.

[horsetowater]

*available energy and resources

[horsetowater]

You haven't been arse, you are allowed to over-think, complicate and tactically under-inform this because you are an academic. It's part of your job.

But you should see a solicitor - this kind of ingrained inequality precisely what the European Court of Human Rights is for. And an essential battle for all women. I will be disappointed if you don't attack this with all your available for the injustice that it is.

And if you are all academics it's perfect because they will all LOVE to go over it thoroughly and have endless meetings and discussions. If they are true academics they will enjoy this process and give your solicitor all the evidence they need and more. Just get a solicitor with a lot of patience.