Everyone to receive jab against swine flu

[sherby]

here

will you be having it?

sorry about typos, rushing cos cooking dinner.

People to be given vaccinations ! - a bit of Torchwood going on there ! [ grin]

The way the vaccine is likely to work (I don't know the specifics of what type of vaccine(s) will be available for H1N1 is that the body will actually make 10's-1000's of different antibodes to the vaccine. As long as the virus doesn't mutate all 10-1000 pieces to which we develop immunity via vaccination the vaccine will still work even after the virus mutates. The virus won't be able to mutate enough to avoid the vaccine.

Finally - even if this years seasonal flu is H1N1 (and I am not sure we have seasonal flu yet ) H1N1 is actually a family of viruses and each specific strain of H1N1 will probably need it's own vaccine.

I'd have it (assuming it is OK for my medical history) and insist dh and ds have it assuming it's safe. Dh and I both have medical conditions that make me feel a little more vulnerable - dh has asthma so gets the annual seasonal flu jab anyway.

Hope it comes in time for my mother, who I'm sure has COPD but won't go and talk to the doc about it (thinks she'll be told off for smoking). She's very grim about flu, says it carried her dad off and it'll do for her too. (Post mortem on her dad after heart attack showed damage caused by severe flu he'd had a few months previously.)

'Just to throw another aspect into the debate (and I am deliberately not falling on one side or the other BTW). What about herd immunity'

Exactly.

Sorry PP - When I said this year's I meant - the season just past - not the one coming. I still think in terms of school years for some bizarre reason!

I'm pg so I'm presuming that I wouldn't be able to have it. However, I've never (that I can remember anyway) had 'normal' seasonal flu. I've had bad colds, but never that 'can't move out of bed, hot and cold, raging temperature' thing that signals flu.

Either I'm got great natural immunity to most flu or none at all .

Thanks for the explanations btw. I still don't think I'll rush out to get it though. It all just seems to be a bit too 'iffy'. IF the virus mutates it could be dangerous (or it could be milder) IF the vaccine works it could protet us but how well will it work because no vaccine is 100% effective.

Also, regarding herd immunity - you don't NEED a vaccine to build up herd immunity. Come September most of us will have had this flu or been exposed to it in some way and we will have built up some kind of immunity to it already.

Actually, before we have it, I need clarification on the five days of testing
Surely they cannot mean the actual vaccine will have clinical trials lasting five days.

Anyone know anything about this?

If that is the case I'd rather take my chances with the flu thank you very much. (and that is from a very pro-flu-vaccine person)

If it's only getting five day tests - even if it's been extensively modelled I'm not having it. Vaccine effects take a long time sometimes to emerge.

bubbleymummy - sadly having had it is no defence if it mutates. You might get a milder form, but equally, your body could do a complete freak out and storm - then you are buggered.

wmmc - do you think the vaccine would be no use either then? If the vaccine triggers an immune response to the current strain (because that's what they're using to create the vaccine )and the virus then mutates then surely that's the same as if we caught the current strain and were then exposed to the mutated strain?

bubbleymummy - What I meant was - your immune system is a weird, unpredictable thing. There is something called a cytokine storm where it goes 'oh shit' and flips out madly at the bug you've got when really it should be able to cope with it.

Even if your body knows this is an infection you've had before there is no knowing how it will react - take for example the injection of venom from a wasp sting. I've been stung many times - yet one time in about 100 I get a very extreme reaction. Was that particular wasp unusual? Probably not, probably my immune system was reacting to the range of attacks at that time - probably I had a slight but at the same time and my immune system just flipped.

I would be very reluctant to be vaccinated against swine flu, and even more reluctant to have DD (21 months) done - how can they know the long-term effects of a vaccine they haven't had that long to whip up? Clinical trials lasting 5 days is worrying. And IIRC the last time a flu epidemic required mass vaccination more people died and were left with long-term health problems from the vaccine rather than from the flu. It's hard to know what to do for the best though isn't it?

Hmm, but then we have seasonal flu jabs that they have a lot of experience cooking up that have 3 different strains in every year chosen 6 months before. What is the normal testing period for that? Surely timescales are tight normally anyway so they can go into mass production.

Not sure how I feel about a vaccine tbh. I am asthmatic and dh is immuno-suppressed and we have 2 kids under 5 (1 a baby) so presumably all high risk.

That said, I don't bother with the usual flu vac and touch wood don't tend to get 'flu' but as funtime says that could be a good thing or a bad thing !

Will wait and see I think !

It will still work because swine flu is just another type influenza virus. It's not a completely different germ. The vaccine they make up each year is not a completely different vaccine either, they just tweak it a bit to take account of the changes in the virus.

Flu vaccines are not designed to provide long lasting immunity in the way that e.g. polio vaccine does.

My dd has asthma and has a flu jab each year. She will again this year. I'm of all the hype about swine flu, but if she gets any type of respiratory virus her asthma kicks off big time.

So they'd be tailoring the regular seasonal flu jab then? That makes more sense and is less worrying.

I'm still wary of more vaccines for DD though, and with this situation there's the potential for damned if you do, damned if you don't: if I refuse to let DD have it, and she is badly affected by the flu I'll have to live with that vs the potential of being badly affected by the vaccine. The chances of her not being severely affected by either scenario is the more likely...will adopt Wheelybug's wait and see attitude i think...

not sure if I would tbh. I like mrsT's approach of if you would be more likely to come to harm from the illness or the vaccine, and with a vaccine that has had limited testing the outcome of that is unknown, so i think I'd take my chances with the virus.

Was reading up about symptoms/swine flu yesterday as currently full of cold (well I guess it could be swine flu but who knows?) and the nhs direct artacle I read said that 0.4% of people aflicted have died, that is the same as the seasonal norm. It also said that a lot of people won't have been diagnosed, so the 0.4% is probably overestimated, thus making the chances of dying of swine flu less than the chances of dying from normal seasonal flu.

Actually the flu virus would have to undergo thousands, probably millions of mutations to make a flu vaccine generated now ineffective....

I also think that the normal mortality rate from flu is actually 0.1-0.2% off the top of my head....therefore this is more deady, although not greatly so when you look at statistical significance. The undiagnosed rule affecting the percentages is also tru of seasonal flu (and perhaps more of an issue TBH), so cannot be a way to justify differences.

We've already had swine flu. There's NO way I would subject my kids to a brand new jab when they're already had confirmed cases of swine flu.

expat what symptoms did you all have?

it varied. dd1 fell ill first and was hardest hit.

she had a sudden 39 degree temp, muscle/body aches, headache and a BAD cough. later, she had diarrhea.

dh only had a bad cold. so did dd2, although she also had diarrhea.

ds had a fever, cough, D&V.

i had come and go fever, cough, sore chest, D&V and extreme fatigue. really, really bad fatigue.

ds, then aged 7 months, tested by nasal swab, the girls by nasal and throat swab, dh and i by nasal and throat swab and bloods.

cdc seem to estimate seasonal flu death rates in a range of between of 0.06% - 0.24% so that sounds right Perfectprefect.

Jjou, they aren't tailoring the seasonal flu jab for the swine flu. This one will be separate, some will be grown in eggs and some using cell based technology. They do have huge experience in producing safe flu vaccines of course but there are unknowns - how well this one will grow in eggs for instance, how well the bodies immune system will react. (they still don't know if one or two doses of it will be needed or if perhaps they will use an adjuvant (an added component which boosts how effective the jab will be)).

They may well offer seasonal flu jabs as well to target audiences. Its going to be a huge huge operation to do both I reckon.

So my final answer for this month is... I don't know yet.

And WHO are issuing a report saying that licensed vaccines might not be ready til the end of the year.
Associated press article

If its an accurate article, they seem to be struggling to grow it rapidly enough.

oh dear.

There may be an economic argument too, Showofhands, as vaccinating may prove cheaper than the NHS being overwhelmed by flu sufferers. Getting vulnerable people and health workers vaccinated at the very least is bound to help the NHS to cope.