Apple Tax (serious)

[PigletJohn]

Rather unusually, FT have a free public article here

I will confess that my starting position is that tax should not be optional, and it is not right that the rich and powerful should be able to manipulate the world to avoid it.

In the last couple of days an alternative lobby sprang up in the US which looks to me like they are saying it's not fair foreigners should make American owned companies pay tax.

[mathsmum314]

You have to say that there is a large number of people who dont care. Because despite Apples tax situation, hundreds of millions of people still keep giving them several hundreds of pounds a year. So who is really to blame?

[PigletJohn]

it's the guvmint, innit?

[Chippednailvarnishing]

This has been a hot topic in accounting for years, international accounting standards are mandatory throughout Europe and much of the world.
Tax policies were considered to be under the domain of the national governments, with them offering agreements to individual companies. There's also been a lot written about companies claiming to be ethical, but having massive tax departments in every possible country to find loopholes...

[yeOldeTrout]

What infuriates me is that it's all big companies that can pull these tax shenanigans... SMEs have no chance against the big guns. That's outrageous to entrench the dominate market position of the big companies.

Some of those companies set up in Eire because they wanted to be in the EU, which is a club that tries to make sure the rules are fair from one country to another (countries within the EU club) to prevent any one country having an unfair advantage over others. Then the companies complain about EU rules. Thieving scum bastards.

[PigletJohn]

The CNN article is surprisingly unforgiving of Apple

money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html?section=money_news_companies&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fmoney_news_companies+%28CNNMoney%3A+Companies+News%29

"Consider this: In 2014, the corporate giant paid just $50 in tax for every million it made selling iPhones and iPads to most of the world outside America.^

That's a tax rate of just 0.005%. Yes, you read that correctly. "

[LurkingHusband]

I note with interest that the Irish government is to fight this ruling.

One idly wonders what Irish citizens feel about their government turning away £13billion ? I had no idea things were going so well over there.

I have absolutely no idea about anything, but there would be a cosmic humour if this incident prompted Ireland to withdraw from the EU ...

[LurkingHusband]

cite

[howabout]

That thought had occurred to me too Lurking.

[PigletJohn]

I hear Apple is planning to repatriate billions of its untaxed profits from its tax-havens to US, and pay tax on them.
www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a63fa440-7023-11e6-9ac1-1055824ca907.html 7.Apple to repatriate overseas cash pile next year, says Cook

Apple (and others) have been heaping them up on treasure islands, untaxed, apparently hoping that one day they can cut a deal with the US government for mates-rates tax and bring them home to distribute to shareholders.

The Americans seem to be unhappy that Apple's tax dodging has been attacked in Europe which reduces the amount of money that, one day, might possibly arrive in America.

[PigletJohn]

Ireland is considered to be no more corrupt than Hong Kong so I'm sure nobody would suggest there have been any arrangements to gain preferential treatment.

"This comes despite the recent revelations in an RTÉ documentary when it was shown that politicians at all levels had incorrectly declared their interests, and some councillors had sought cash payments in return for their services"

[Chippednailvarnishing]

I don't consider Ireland to be anymore corrupt than any other western country. This tax avoidance mechanism is happening in every country, ultimately if you want to stop it you as a consumer have to vote with your spending.
There isn't a government on the planet that will take a solitary stand.

[Amalfimamma]

As I see it the EU isn't looking to punish apple for 'unpaid taxes' but to once more force ireland to raise its coperate tax rates has it has done in the past and which, thankfully, the Irish government refused.

The government says that Apple paid what should have been paid so why is the EU trying get to impose it's will on a sovereign government and COUNTRY?

[PigletJohn]

"force ireland to raise its coperate tax rates"

I don't understand where you have got that from.

Please explain.

[LurkingHusband]

The Americans seem to be unhappy that Apple's tax dodging has been attacked in Europe

More idle speculation from me - post Brexit - as to how pure the US motives to keep the UK in the EU were ?

Assuming May & Co don't completely fuck up Brexit (although if the negotiations for Brexit are as mature as the campaigns before it were, I wouldn't hold out much hope) then what is now a 2-horse race for Apples tax would become a 3-way race between the UK, EU and US.

Again, with the caveat that I know fuck all, it seems the wider problems of corporate taxation are rooted in the desire to achieve a quantum state of company. One that has the same rights as a real person (so can sue for libel, and take legal action as an individual), but then becomes a "company" when individual taxation is discussed. (See "having your cake and eating it").

We're seeing a lot of this in contemporary politics. Like Schroedingers immigrant, who is coming over here to claim benefits whilst simultaneously stealing your job.

We need a cat.

In a box.

[Amalfimamma]

PigletJohn

The lisbon treaty, sarkozy publicly calling for Ireland coperate tax to be raised as it was a "threat" to the whole union, Angela Merkel saging it must be raised.........the eu saying that they must be raised.......

[ElspethFlashman]

The attitude here is surprisingly muted. But then we tend to be muted about these things, rightly or wrongly. There is a bitter acceptance .

Firstly, everyone knows that that 13 billion would be used to pay off debt, and would never trickle down to the people. It would change nothing on the ground. Some people are pretty snarky and savage about that, but recognise the unappealing truth of it all the same.

Secondly, we know this is the reason we've attracted numerous US companies. They could have gone anywhere in the EU. They go.on about how Ireland has a highly educated workforce (true) but we're hardly unique in that. They came here because the government told them if they did they would pay virtually no tax, and it would be perfectly legal.

These companies combined create a lot of jobs. Literally everyone knows someone who works for one of them. The salaries and benefits are great. Any one of them pulling out in a small country like this would be terrible. They also attract their own subsidiaries and other companies in the same sector to place HQ here. The benefits to the economy are substantial, though I don't have the figures to hand.

So there is a school of thought "Better to lose 13 billion now than lose all that long term investment".

[PigletJohn]

Amalfimamma

And where can you see a request to Ireland to increase its tax rate in the Apple case?

[Amalfimamma]

PigletJohn

Ireland coperate tax was used against ireland when they needed the bailout in 2010 and the IMF AND EU said they wouldn't give the bailout u less it raised its coperate tax,

Article 2.79 of the Lisbon Treaty demands that taxes are 'harmonized' across Europe

Angela Merkel said "fair to say we can only give our commitment [to a renegotiation on the Irish bailout] when we get something in return".(raising the coperate tax)
Sarkozy said "I deeply respect our Irish friends' independence and we have done everything to help them," he said yesterday. "But they cannot continue to say 'come and help us' while keeping a tax on company profits that is half [that of other countries]."

Then Canadian finance minister, who intervened on behalf of the imf also said 'At one point the IMF asked me to intervene as the leader of the Canadian constituency at the IMF to demand Ireland raise its corporate tax rate as a condition of receiving IMF aid'

[PigletJohn]

And where can you see a request to Ireland to increase its tax rate in the Apple case?

[Amalfimamma]

In the apple case it is the eu imposing their will on a sovereign nation. They say, decide and demand going against the wishes of the nation. It's a round about way of raising taxes.

Do you live in the UK? Pay taxes in the UK? If you got a letter from the Australian prima minister tomorrow saying you owed the Australian government back taxes what would you Say?

[PigletJohn]

So there isn't a request to Ireland to increase its tax rate in the Apple case?

[Amalfimamma]

Telling apple to pay back taxes that aren't due is designed facto telling them that ireland coperate tax isn't accepted by the EU. So this decision is your request in this case. Other requests (read threats) have been made over the years. By numerous sources within the eu and imf

[PigletJohn]

my request?

Where in the Apple case does it say that Irish corporation tax isn't accepted? Surely it says that sweetheart deals and special favours and competitive undercutting within the community aren't accepted.

[Amalfimamma]

PigletJohn

It's common knowledge that irelands coperate tax has been jn the sights of the eu elite for many a year, they've tried numerous times and used numerous methods to try to bully ireland into raising it. Ireland has always refused. There was no 'sweetheart deal' there was a deal, which is not new or unheard off in other countries. Take a look at Volkswagen in Germany, the banks in italy, friends of friends in Europe as a whole.

The apple case per se is a non acceptance of ireland coperate tax.

[caroldecker]

Amal the investigation is certainly driven by the low tax rate, but does not ask it to be reduced.

Piglet What the judgement does is write OECD transfer pricing rules into Irish tax law, where the did not exist.