Was Ellen's tweet really racist?

[Propertyquandry]

here

I'm really surprised at the outrage over this. I cannot even see how it can be seen as casual racism. He's just been declared, once again, as the fastest man on the planet. Everybody loves him and she makes a joke basically alluding to the fact that he'd get her where she wants to go quicker than anything else. He even retweeted it, and not at all in a negative way. All the talk of riding him like a mule. It's a mock up of him giving her a piggy back ffs! It seems if he was white or she was black it would be ok.

[Mjingaxx]

What is the point of this thread OP?

[Mjingaxx]

I find the meme distasteful

I find a thread of predominantly white people, insisting that no one take offence, far more troublesome.

[peargrapes]

"I absolutely do think it makes unfortunate allusions to slavery. Intentionally racist - no, culturally insensitive, yes"

^ This.

[Propertyquandry]

What is the point of this thread OP?

To start a discussion like most of the forum.
If you're suggesting that I'm trying to debunk racism or suggest that ingrained casual racism isn't a thing then you're wrong. I think casual racism/sexism are in many ways a bigger problem that outright hostility. I just don't think this fall in any way under that category and I honestly think it's ridiculous, even if based on historical wrongdoings of which there were many, to proclaim it racist simply on the basis that he is black and she is white.

[Mjingaxx]

But you are dismissing the life experiences of the Black people who are offended, by calling it ridiculous

What is the point to the discussion?

You have your own opinion. You certainly aren't going to stop the people who are offended, from being offended, by calling them ridiculous. Just further hurt them and inflame a situation.

Why are you invested in people not feeling offended at this?

[babajuice]

MrsTerryPratchett

"Basically, if you're a man, listen when a women tells you something is sexist. I understand that because I'm a women and a feminist."

This. A thousand times.

I'm black. I think as PP have said, that it was ill-advised given the connotations and America's race relations both historically and currently.

I do not think Ellen is racist and I personally was not bothered by the photo. Some responses on this thread have bothered me though. Some people may have interpreted the photo as racist. The reason for this has been explained as the connotations that arise from it. I feel uncomfortable that, even when given an explanation as to why some might think it is, some posters seem to still have reached a definitive conclusion that it is not racist.

I don't feel comfortable proclaiming it is not at all racist, when people have explained what they are interpreting when they look at the photo.

[Propertyquandry]

I think the issue is with the American psyche. I think most people around the world, regardless of their skin colour would see it for what it is. And indeed they have. I think the issue is an American one, not a racial one.

And I think it's a lazy put down to suggest that white women have no place discussing racism. My grandparents on both sides were Irish. There are many even overt colloquialisms used in the uk today that could be considered offensive to a nation who were (some argue still are) oppressed. Yet if I was party to a discussion where an Englishman claimed an Irishman was 'thick' when that Irishman was renound across the world for not being very bright, I would see it as a fair assumption that he was calling him thick because he was indeed not the brightest rather than assume it was an offensive anti Irish remark despite the Irish having to endure the 'thick' comments and the put downs for many years.

[DoinItFine]

You are not really Irish, so you don't get to decide that it's OK for English people to call Irish people thick.

I think the issue is with the American psyche.

LOL

[Propertyquandry]

I didn't say they were ridiculous, I said it was ridiculous to see something as racist when there was clearly a much more in your face, obvious reason for it. And as CheerfulYank acknowledged, there is indeed a lobby of African Americans who believe inter racial marriages should be banned as they believe them to always, without exception, be based on an imbalance of power. They are especially against white men and black women. I haven't made that up. I've met some of these people and talked to them when we lived there. They were perfectly nice people who were fundamentally opposed to such unions as they found them offensive. They also found such unions depicted in television as offensive. And whilst I respect their legal right to hold such opinions, I absolutely do not agree that they get to dictate that such a thing can be called offensive simply because they deem it so. Their perspective is so skewed based on historical atrocities and centuries of oppression that they cannot see the wood for the trees. They cannot see a loving relationship based on mutual respect. I think this is the same. Some people are struggling to see him as simply the fastest man on Earth.

I am happy to agree to disagree but I won't accept the suggestion that it's because I'm a racism apologist or worse, I have sinister intent. I understand why some AAs take offence but I disagree that that means we should deem the tweet as offensive.

[Propertyquandry]

Well I lived in Ireland for 4yrs as schools although I wasn't born there. My mother was born there but raised in Engkand too. My whole upbringing was 'Irish' though so I won't accept you telling me I dont understand the Irish issue. When the first song you learn by heart is The Fields of Athenry, then you understand the Irish issue.

[DoinItFine]

Their perspective is so skewed based on historical atrocities and centuries of oppression that they cannot see the wood for the trees.

Their perspective is skewed because of centuries of oppression??

Skewed?

But centuries of white privilege presumably give you wonderful clarity that could help them to see things correctly.

Maybe you should stop posting racist comments?

It's kind of undermining your argument.

[peargrapes]

Images work strongly through connotations (see Roland Barthes & others), any art & design student will have discussed how the media construct race in their foundation year.

i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/20/article-2265352-170C26C4000005DC-568_634x439.jpg

atlantablackstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/lebron_as_brute2.jpg

cdn.trendhunterstatic.com/thumbs/racist-editorials-vogue-italia-stereotypes-a-black-woman-as-a-maid.jpeg

cassappity.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/vogue_keira.jpg

A few examples i remember from college.

I don't believe Elen posted this consciously with racist intentions but the connotations are there and we are lucky to be able to discuss the tweet openly.

[Mjingaxx]

You can be certain OP, that people outside of USA are also offended

There is nothing wrong with people's 'psyche' just because they have a different opinion to yourself. If black people are offended at white people's jokes then they are not functioning healthily mentally????

PEOPLE LIVE DIFFERENT LIVES. THEY HAVE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES. CONTEXT ALTERS PEOPLES PERCEPTIONS AND OPINIONS

[Mjingaxx]

and we are lucky to be able to discuss the tweet openly

I think this thread needs to go actually

[babajuice]

Property

"And I think it's a lazy put down to suggest that white women have no place discussing racism. "

Everyone has a place in discussing racism. No-one should be shut down or excluded from it. I just think it is helpful, when discussing it, to listen to the reasons people think something is racist, which I think you are trying to do.

"I understand why some AAs take offence but I disagree that that means we should deem the tweet as offensive."

I don't think anybody is saying you need to deem the tweet offensive. You've already accepted that some African Americans might. I would say perhaps consider that maybe it's not just African Americans that might find it offensive, for the same reasons, and they are well within their rights to.

They see the world through their lenses, just as you see the world through yours.

[DoinItFine]

When the first song you learn by heart is The Fields of Athenry, then you understand the Irish issue.



That is such an idiotic thing to say.

Honestly.

The "Irish issue"?

There's just one issue, and you understand it because you learnt a crappy piece of sentimental, rabble rousing nonsense when you were a child?



When the first song you learnt by heart was Peigí Leitir Mhóir, you might have a better idea of what you are talking about when you discuss Irishness in relation to English stereotypes.

But then again, you might not.

[peargrapes]

"but I disagree that that means we should deem the tweet as offensive."

OP, why do you think you can dictate that we should or shouldn't take the tweet as offensive? Who is we?

"I think this thread needs to go actually"
What? Why?
It's a perfectly legitimate topic to discuss. If there are any racist posts, they can be reported.

[Queenbean]

I think this thread needs to go actually

Why? If there are racist posts then report. But it's healthy and positive to be able to debate things like this, not shut down discussion altogether.

[Propertyquandry]

What are you talking about? My American psyche comment was in reference to another poster saying that UB may not have seen anything racist because he is nit American and he lives in a country where blacks hold high office and do professional jobs as a matter of routine. Therefore I was commenting that it was an issue 'seen' by black Americans more than it would be by Black British or Black Jamaicans.

And since when did making reference to a national psyche become and attack on anyone's mental health? There's no correlation there nor should one be extrapolated.

And DoinItFine, I'd like you to refrain from calling me a racist or suggesting my posts are racist. Nothing I have posted is in any way either overtly or covertly racist. Nothing.

[Mjingaxx]

Do you think the reason AA object to interracial relationships is different to why white people object to white Americans??

You seem very ignorant about racism. Which is fine. But don't talk about it as if you have any authority, insight or understanding

[babajuice]

Just a gentle heads up Property, it may just be a personal thing that I don't like, but pluralising, ie "blacks" like in your last post doesn't sit well with me. It's the same as when people say "the gays". The reason being, I associate that type of pluralisation preceding derogatory comments. I can explain further if you like, but don't want to derail the post.

[Propertyquandry]

I'm not rising to that nonsense. I understand it perfectly well both from my upbringing and as a history graduate. I've seen the anger and the legacy. I've stood on the pavement frozen in fear as the orange walk went past knowing they were marching against me. And I've wondered how 2 neighbour's can get in so well when one had a great big picture of the Pope on the wall and the other a King Billy mural. Don't tell me irony understand it because I've lived it.

[DoinItFine]

It is racist to suggest that black Americans have had their opinions skewed by the racism they have been subjected to.

You seem terribly confident of never making any racist comments for someone who was brought up in a racist society, where racist suppositions are the norm.

Racism is standard. Not some unusual aberration that can be easily identified and neutralised.

Even if we put all the white people with their "unskewed" views in charge of deciding.

Oh wait... they already are.

[Propertyquandry]

Actually, babajuice you don't need to explain that further st all. I get that totally. I should have typed black people but I was kind of talking collectively as I was referring specifically to Jamaicans. But I absolutely take that point. That I can see can be deemed offensive.

[peargrapes]

I totally agree baba.