Was Ellen's tweet really racist?

[Propertyquandry]

here

I'm really surprised at the outrage over this. I cannot even see how it can be seen as casual racism. He's just been declared, once again, as the fastest man on the planet. Everybody loves him and she makes a joke basically alluding to the fact that he'd get her where she wants to go quicker than anything else. He even retweeted it, and not at all in a negative way. All the talk of riding him like a mule. It's a mock up of him giving her a piggy back ffs! It seems if he was white or she was black it would be ok.

[babajuice]

I didn't speculate about how UB feels. I just said that if people feel the image is offensive, they're allowed to. I personally was not "outraged", but I didn't like the suggestion that anyone who felt offended by it did not have a right to feel that.

I don't know why you're jumping down some of the posters throats here. No one has tried to speak for all black people. It seems your issue is with those of us who have said we are black. It appears that to you, saying we're black, that means we're trying to speak for black people. Saying, "guys, I'm black and we should let people explain how they feel about this image rather than shut them down" is not the same as saying "all black people think this".

Also, you "post on actual black forums". Good for you. Not sure what that is supposed to prove. Are you more qualified to speak about how you feel about this then?

[A11TheSmallTh1ngs]

If the Ellen meme is racist, it's racist because it's racist. It's not racist because Usain Bolt did or did not retweet it. We don't need to speculate about how he really feels because it's not really relevant.

Seriously, stop speaking for other black people and just make the actual case.

[Mjingaxx]

People were just pointing out that the existence of those magazine covers, do not prove that the Ellen meme is not racist; as posters here were trying to insinuate

There are a number of different possibilities.

[A11TheSmallTh1ngs]

Actually you are baba and MrsTerryPratchett and PearGrape too. Maybe they didn't feel like they could speak up. Maybe they didn't see the end picture etc etc.

The most annoying thing is that you are speculating about how they felt when you don't need to. Make your own argument and guess what, other black people might disagree! Like someone said, Page 3 models doesn't make page 3 not sexist.

Hell, I post on actual black forums (I'll happily pm it to you if you want to confirm) and many people think the whole media outrage is an overreaction as the pictures are "suspicious" at best.

The media loves an outrage cycle and this is just another storm in a teacup but, fine, you have the right to be outraged. Other black people have the right not to have you pretend that they are secretly outraged but don't feel comfortable enough to speak out.

[Mjingaxx]

Yes, it would appear to be a bit of a srrawman argument

[babajuice]

A11

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but as someone who posted a lot on this thread, I don't believe I ever tried to speak for black people.

With regards to that image of the two baseball players and woman, I said

"I don't know what they did or didn't realise at the time, but if they were ever confronted with someone explaining why they thought the cover was racist, I hope they listened, even if they didn't agree that it was."

So nope. Not trying to speak for them at all.

[A11TheSmallTh1ngs]

And I don't think it's racist but I think it's fine if other people do. But this thing where black people feel they have the right to speak for another black person ( and invariably get mad when they end up speaking differently) is childish and annoying.

[A11TheSmallTh1ngs]

Hmm. I'm also black. I think the other black people on this thread should STOP speaking for black celebrities whose opinions they don't know and continually implying that they were internally conflicted about these pictures but felt they HAD to do them.

There's no evidence this was the case and in the case of the last sports illustrated picture, they strongly defended the picture.

Speak for yourself or speak structurally. But don't put words in other people's mouths.

[babajuice]

Thanks Mjingaxx

I personally felt the word "diss" came across as quite loaded in the context it was used in.

[hollyisalovelyname]

No it was not.
Have a look at the Daily Mail comments on the Irish boxer, Michael Conlon who was cheated out of a medal yesterday.
Some of them were appalling in their anti Irishness.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Women can internalize sexism, Black people can internalize racism. There's also 'making a fuss'. Maybe the three people in the last picture were uncomfortable but wanted the work/publicity. Then there's changes in culture. People may be allowed to object more now.

Also, all the posters saying that Ellen or anyone may not have noticed/seen/realized the context of race... It is almost always the powerful majority that has the luxury of not seeing race (in this case), inequality or what the issue is. 'I don't see race' is really just shorthand for 'racism doesn't affect me'.

[Mjingaxx]

It's like saying page3 models aren't objectified because they choose to do it

[peargrapes]

"Funny how the men who posed for those covers didn't realise they were dissing their race."

We can be quite sure the two men had no idea what the cover was going to look like when the photographs of them were taken. The image is most likely photoshopped the women is probably sitting on a stool, which has been erased not on anybody's shoulders . There probably are at least 200 photos with different poses, outfits, lights taken for that mag cover. and the image of the woman may have been taken on a different occasion altogether, that's how editorial photography works in my experience. It 'is up to the editors of the mag to construct the cover. Models have rarely any say over this unless perhaps they are very famous a listers with a professional PR team.


"The second cover is using the beauty of a handsome woman to make 2 great athletes look even better." The stereotypes obviously work very well on the intended audience.

[Mjingaxx]

Good post baba

[babajuice]

"Funny how the men who posed for those covers didn't realise they were dissing their race."

Funny how you're quick to place the responsibility onto those men rather than just listen and accept that some people might find this image racist.

Also, "dissing their race".

Do you mean did they know they were feeding into a structural system that more often than not favours white people? I mean in the wider sense, not just this image. Your use of "dissing" reduces the complexity and severity of the issues being discussed here. It's not a "diss", it's perpetuating a cycle of oppression. I don't know what they did or didn't realise at the time, but if they were ever confronted with someone explaining why they thought the cover was racist, I hope they listened, even if they didn't agree that it was.

[lljkk]

The second cover is using the beauty of a handsome woman to make 2 great athletes look even better.

Funny how the men who posed for those covers didn't realise they were dissing their race.

[babajuice]

lljkk I don't think anyone who is offended by Ellen's photo can categorically say that there can be no other interpretation.

Throughout this whole thread, some posters have reiterated that we all view the world differently, what offends one does not offend another.

You can listen to why someone is offended and you can empathise without having to agree with them. What I find unhelpful, is telling anyone that they shouldn't find something offensive just because you don't.

[peargrapes]

The second cover is sexist and racist in terms of drawing on cultural stereotypes. KK

[lljkk]

Here's another one, yup can only mean Sports Illustrated views black men as pack animals. There can be no other interpretation. Actually, at the time, this cover was seen as making women into sex objects, race was not the issue.

[lljkk]

Ridiculous row... at the time, everyone who objected to this image (because it showed a white woman in close physical contact with a black man) was called racist and to get over it. Weirdly I can't find the Sports Illustrated version online... has it been deliberately expunged from searches??

[i8sum314]

Interesting thread. I enjoyed reading this thread but propertyquandary I was born and raised in Ireland and I don't know any of those rabble rousing songs or the fields of Athenry! or pegín lettermore (although that title does sound very familiar) I think they're more of a second generation thing. my parents listened to Abba and the bee gees.

[babajuice]

Property Sorry I keep thinking of responses - I know you're having lunch now so obviously it's fine if you can't answer, but the only people deeming it offensive, are the people who found it offensive. Which you've previously said you understand.

I'm not really sure what the issue is. People who aren't offended by it aren't being forced to find it offensive. I just suggested it was a good idea to listen to the reasons why some are offended.

Hockey if you or anyone else is offended on Ellen's behalf, then that's fine. No one can dictate that. I could explain to you why I'm not offended on her behalf, but I can't tell you what to think and feel.

[peargrapes]

"What about the people who are offended by Ellen being accused of racism then"

That's fine, feel free to feel offended . Whatever rocks your boat.

[peargrapes]

"But I still believe that something does not automatically become offensive by virtue of someone being offended by it."

If somebody is offended by something it is offensive to that person.

If a group of people are offended by something it is offensive to this group.

If somebody and / or groups of people are offence by something, does this mean it is offensive to all human kind? well, no of course not.

OP, Your posts read as if you want to decide what is deemed offensive and can be generalised as offensive and what not.

The question are you able to feel empathy for any group of people who feel offended or hurt by something that wouldn't seem hurtful or offensive to you? Are you able acknowledge the fact that other people get to decide what is offensive or acceptable to them?

Is your issue about censorship? If Ellen takes down the tweet (did she?) it is her choice of not wanting to appear offensive or indeed offend people. She would show empathy and understanding of the issue and go with that rather than insisting on that the tweet wasn't meant in a racist way. Either would be fine and would be Ellen's decision.

[i8sum314]

Did white people used to use black people to give them piggy backs??

As a white person I look at it and just think, they're friends, she's joking, he's fast........ I get that that's my perspective being ignorant of some aspects of history. But most banter is about the 'now'.