Why does the Labour Party not support Brexit?

[FlatulentStarfish]

Forgive me, I am not brilliantly knowledgeable about politics. But what I can't understand is why are the Labour Party not supporting Brexit? I always understood that Labour supported the British poor and working classes. Surely these are the very people who are being most hurt by remaining in the EU. One newspaper described the referendum as a battle between the Haves and the Have Nots. Why are Labour abandoning their people? The old Labour politicians such as Tony Benn were always anti EU.

[LittleBearPad]

Oh for goodness sake Professor. The EU is not tyrannical, it is not Hitler. Any suggestion that it bears any resemblance to a man who was responsible for millions of deaths is deeply offensive.

[claig]

I never used to take Boris seriously, I just thought he was more of the same, but the more truth he tells, the more respect the people give him.

"The London Mayor claimed the EU had removed democratically elected governments in Italy and Greece to “install Brussels-approved technocrats” which he said was “narcotic tyranny”.
...
Boris Johnson has said the “elites of Europe” want Britain to remain in the EU so they can hang on to power.

The London Mayor and one of the Leave campaigns main figureheads said democracy was being eroded across Europe as millions of people “whose only power is their ability to sack their governments at elections” are having it taken away.

Brussels “has been in self-imposed lockdown” for a year, he claimed, because “nothing must be done to frighten the children”.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-boris-johnson-claims-elites-want-to-remain-in-europe-to-keep-hold-of-power-a6999306.html

And there is a whole lot more in that article including Davos, lobbyists, elites etc etc

[LittleBearPad]

Boris is claiming a lot of things. It doesn't make all, or indeed any, of them true.

[Popocatapetl1234]

Bit rich Boris Johnson talking about the "elites of Europe" as if he was not the prime example of that particular class!

[LittleBearPad]

Well quite Popocat

[AnnaForbes]

They are all elites from privileged backgrounds. corbyn's childhood home was a mansion and he went to a private school. I think it is largely irrelevant. What matters to me is where each politician is in terms of the EU. Any of them that want us to remain are working for the interests of big business and that is just unacceptable; I'd expect that from a Tory but not from the Labour party.

Corbyn has consistently been a Eurosceptic. He has recently deleted off the internet articles written before he became leader of the Labour party, articles which criticise the Lisbon Treaty and the unaccountable nature of the EU. He has previously written:

"There is a strong socialist argument against the Lisbon Treaty and the economic consequences that flow from it."

and

"The creation of the post of president is a triumph for the tenacity of the European long-sighters. The project has always been to create a huge free-market Europe, with ever-limiting powers for national parliaments and an increasingly powerful common foreign and security policy."

More u-turns from the remainers.

[LittleBearPad]

Jeremy Corbyn has had to learn that he has more responsibility as leader than as a rather obscure backbench MP on the fringes of his party.

[unexpsoc]

No professor

We fought in world war 2 to maintain our power in the world and ensure we were the foremost power in Europe.

I think that may be the single most stupid argument I have seen on the issue.

Well, apart from claiming to know which way ISIS and Putin would vote, obviously.

Get a grip.

[Palehorse]

It's an easy choice for me as a labour supporter and socialist.
Socialism=internationalism=greater integration of the EU. Closer links with Europe means greater opportunities for workers/unions to integrate and fight for more rights, better conditions and the overthrow of the capitalist state😉.
And as a side note:
Duncan Smith has also been very impressive and courageous and has put the people first Jesus wept, words fail me

[AnnaForbes]

Corbyn's Remain speech argued this “working together across our continent we can develop our economies, protect social and human rights, tackle climate change and clamp down on tax dodgers”.

Which is odd because last June he said this:

"The EU is too beholden to corporate interests and the behind-closed-doors negotiations over TTIP confirm this. This poses a huge threat to our environmental standards, consumer protections and workers' rights."




Jeremy Corbyn has had to learn that he has more responsibility as leader than as a rather obscure backbench MP on the fringes of his party. That's one possible reason. Perhaps it is an act of self-preservation. Maybe he wants a job in the EU paying him millions like Kinnock. Whatever the reason he just aint plausible.

[OTheHugeManatee]

Ha! Socialism = internationalism = greater Eu integration.

Globalised free market capitalism also = internationalism. Does that mean you support that as well?

Look at what the EU has done recently, rather than what it says. Enshrining permanent austerity in a treaty; asset-stripping the Southern Med (especially Greece) to prop up French and German banks; secret negotiations with the USA to make it possible for corporations to sue governments who interfere with profit-making.

On what planet do you imagine the institutions doing this can be hijacked to achieve international socialist utopia?

[AnnaForbes]

Palehorse Socialism=internationalism=greater integration of the EU. Closer links with Europe means greater opportunities for workers/unions to integrate and fight for more rights, better conditions and the overthrow of the capitalist state

Jesus wept.

The EU has been willing to throw all sorts of rights aside to keep the Euro afloat and to increase their powers. Have the good people of Greece had better conditions? No. Does the European Arrest Warrant protect rights? No. How can you hope to overthrow a capitalist state when TTIP is a gift for huge multinational corporations and will see our NHS sold off, environmental legislation scrapped and jobs lost?

There is plenty of socialist perspective in the Leave argument.

[Palehorse]

I'm aware of the socialist reasons for brexit, but it's not my perspective. I also realise that the EU is far from perfect in terms of workers rights and the partly undemocratic nature of its structure. However, i think it's better to remain in, to fight from within, if you see what i mean. And TTIP is far from a done deal, despite what Obama said.
Globalisation is not the same thing as internationalism.

[TheOldMonkey]

I feel utterly let down by Jeremy Corbyn. I voted for him in the leadership contest last year, because I thought that he might return the Labour Party to it's roots.

Boris Johnson is saying exactly what I feel Jeremy should be saying, regarding the EU Referendum.

No wonder Labour's core voters are turning to UKIP, the Labour Party seems to be representing middle class public sector workers now and has forgotten about the lower paid.

Also the Trade Unions, I'm shocked that they are supporting the Remain campaign which is so obviously just about big business, globalism and making obscene amounts of the money at the expense of the indigenous population. To be honest I feel bewildered and judging by the comments people are leaving on the Union's facebook page, I am not the only one.

I cannot believe that one of the reasons given for left wingers supporting Remain, is the fear of the Tories implementing legislation that diminishes workers rights. At least the Tories can be voted out. Such short term thinking.

[unexpsoc]

"How can you hope to overthrow a capitalist state when TTIP is a gift for huge multinational corporations and will see our NHS sold off, environmental legislation scrapped and jobs lost?"

Can people stop throwing this in to the pile as a scaremongering tactic about staying in. The simple facts are this - within the EU we have a chance to fight this as the other peoples are bloody furious about TTIP too. The UK government are massive supporters of this. They are one of the key drivers for this to be signed. If we leave the EU, we will not only have less bargaining power with the US (making it more likely this will happen no matter which government is in power) but the current government WANT to do this anyway.

I am genuinely surprised that people think leaving the EU will protect the NHS. May I suggest reading some of the information available on this.

[Palehorse]

unexpsoc
100% agree!
advocating that a vote to remain is a vote to implement TTIP is a total misrepresentation of the facts

[Winterbiscuit]

Also the Trade Unions, I'm shocked that they are supporting the Remain campaign

Yes, I agree. For example, the National Farmers Union favour "remain". But a survey by Farmers Weekly on 29th April showed 58% of the UK's farmers favouring "leave", and a second survey on May 7th found 62% of Young Farmers in favour of leaving the EU.

[Palehorse]

I'm not sure why people are so shocked that Trade Unions would support remaining in the EU. Many of the protections that working people have are as a result of EU legislation. The CWU, probably one of the most left-wing unions, has strongly backed Remain. There's a good article here

‘CWU members and all working people are stronger in Europe, as trade with the EU creates jobs and keeps prices lower, while EU law guarantees crucial rights at work like maternity and paternity leave, paid holidays, and equal treatment for agency workers.
Leaving Europe would be a leap in the dark that would put jobs and workers’ rights at risk.’

'cos we all know those champions of workers and unions Gove and Johnson will ensure legislation is bought forward to replace these hard won rights if Brexit does happen....

[AnnaForbes]

The RMT is urging its members to vote Brexit It's a myth that the EU is in favour of workers they say. The EU is attacking collective bargaining and other worker's rights in countries such as Greece.


Very good letter here in The Guardian signed by Mike Cash and other Union bigwigs from TUC and many other unions. The letter outlines how the EU is irreversibly committed to privatisation, welfare cuts, low wages and the erosion of trade union rights.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/17/eu-is-now-a-profoundly-anti-democratic-institution

The scales need to fall from the remainers eyes so they can see the EU for what it is.

[Palehorse]

I don't need any scales to fall thanks, as I'm perfectly able to read/research (including the interesting link you posted) and come to my own informed conclusions, but thanks for patronising me all the same.

[bobthebuddha]

What is it with this contortionist argument that we should stay in the EU because we'll have more chance to oppose TTIP and there's lots of opposition to it? TTIP is being negotiated BY the EU, in secrecy! To argue that it's a reason to stay in 'because the Tories want TTIP' seems bonkers, frankly.

[AnnaForbes]

I suppose some in the Remain camp are hopeful we will be able to change the system from within. My argument is that if the EU won't reform when we are on the verge of leaving, it's certainly not going to reform if we vote to stay in. It's either that or they think TTIP is a good thing which it isn't unless you are a multinational giant.

[Palehorse]

i don't see it as a 'contortionist' argument. TTIP (which i profoundly disagree with) may or may not happen; there's an argument/fight to be had to prevent it which i would like to be a part of.
On the other hand, we will loose hard won rights (maternity/paternity, workers rights etc. etc.) if we leave, we will suffer economically (personally and nationally), at least in the short term. So then there's a fight on to win back the rights and relative prosperity which we already have! So, it makes no sense to me to leave the EU now.

[bobthebuddha]

How do you think you will be able to affect whether TTIP happens or not, assuming we remain?

[Winterbiscuit]

On the other hand, we will loose hard won rights (maternity/paternity, workers rights etc. etc.

The UK has a proud history of human rights, as far back as the Magna Carta.

UK law is more generous than EU law in many ways. Unless we vote to leave the EU, we could lose control of laws such as these, as UK law is steadily and irreversibly superceded by EU law.

We do not need the European Court to protect women's rights. While no country in the world has brought women complete equality yet, Britain has a substantial history of feminism. The UK has always been far ahead of the EU on women's rights.

The UK’s existing legislation on sex discrimination, the Equality Act 2010, would continue if we leave the EU.

The UK passed legislation protecting women’s rights, such as the Abortion Act 1967 and the Equal Pay Act 1970, before it entered the EU.

The UK's Sex Discrimination Act, the Domestic Violence Act and the Employment Protection Act were all achieved without any help from the EU.

The UK outlawed FGM in 1985 whereas the EU did so in 2012.

The UK's maternity and child care provision are far better than anything legislated for by the EU.

Statutory maternity pay lasts for 39 weeks under UK law, whereas EU law only provides for 14 weeks. In the UK maternity leave can be taken for up to 52 weeks, but the EU only requires a period of 4 months.

UK legislation gives women the right to receive 90% of their salary during the first six weeks of leave, but EU law only requires that the rate of pay in this time period is equivalent to statutory sick pay (£88.45 per week).