Should Michelle Obama (and others) have worn a head scarf?

[CrazyTights]

www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/01/27/michelle-obama-forgoes-a-headscarf-and-sparks-a-backlash-in-saudi-arabia/

Should she (and other females from the west) have worn a head scarf in Saudi or was going without one acceptable?

[Butterflymacqueen]

cleanmachine- My point exactly.

[itsbetterthanabox]

Marmite they may be the known consequences but it isn't the choice of women to live there. A woman cannot leave Saudi unless her make guardian authorises. If she does it without his knowledge they have government funded system so he is texted with her whereabouts.
You can't claim it's their choice to accept the law if they aren't allowed to leave!
What about women who are raped and then charged with adultery. Did they know the law and break it so deserve the punishment?
We can't justify oppressive regimes like this especially as the citizens have no recourse. It's a monarchy! There's no vote. They did not choose this in any stretch of the imagination.
That is completely different to laws made in a country with democracy where we have agreed upon rules

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

Law is law in all countries

See, where the law is 'don't steal' or even 'don't smuggle drugs' I completely understand your point. I think that some countries have incredibly harsh punishments for some crimes, but that's fine - I know not to break the law in that country.

But when the law says 'don't get raped' - NOT don't rape, but don't become a victim of a sexual crime or we'll treat that as adultery and stone you - then no, law isn't law. That's crazy fucked up shit. That's all.

[Marmiteandjamislush]

I take your points of course. I do however think that it's a little hypocritical and also patronizing of us as westerners to condemn a country outright, because it is different from our own. Yes, women may not be able to leave SA but, they can and have protested and make changes, however small. All countries develop at different rates. This country has, in it's history been ruled by absolute monarchs, rape has been deemed as a crime against a man's property, rather than a women's dignity. 100 years ago, unmarried women were chaperoned, a woman could only seek a divorce based on abuse, abandonment or 'unnatural sexual behaviour' on the part of her husband, where as a man could gain a divorce easily, and even have his wife committed unilaterally. Women were discouraged from cycling or wearing trousers ect. Women couldn't vote at all until 1918 As recently as 1994 a husband could legally rape his wife. In Ireland a women, may not have an abortion if she has been raped.

Also, think the other way, the merest suggestion of Sharia Law in this country turns hair white, because it is so alien to us. Western legal systems will seem equally as alien to those in SA.

What I'm trying to say is that, if we look at her own history, we were not so different, but with intelligent voices we have changed. SA has intelligent voices and they will be heard and drive change too.

[itsbetterthanabox]

You're point makes no sense.
So throughout history there has been oppression and abuse. Yes obviously everyone knows that.
It doesn't make it ok for people to live under that then or now.
Speaking out and fighting against oppressive regimes means people die.
If other countries have the means to assist people living in oppressive regimes why leave it just to them to fight against it by themselves. With help less people will die unnecessarily and change will happen faster!

[MessyRedHair]

good for her for shaking things up a bit I say.

[ihatethecold]

Marmite.
Are you a man or a woman?
Just out if interest.

[Marmiteandjamislush]

There's a difference between 'assisting', helping when asked and 'preaching' our 'superior western ways' though.

[Marmiteandjamislush]

A woman.

[itsbetterthanabox]

When has that happened though marmite?

[itsbetterthanabox]

Who is preaching

[TheHappinessTrap]

A woman should wear what she chooses.

[Marmiteandjamislush]

All of those who condemn the country outright as a 'moral cesspit' as I have seen on this thread.

[seaoflove]

Anyone who would be offended by the sight of female hair in this day and age should fuck off back to the 14th century where they belong.

I respect the about as much as they respect me. Which is zilch.

I know I'm a day late here, but here's a standing ovation for Caffe for such an excellent post

[Marmiteandjamislush]

Caffe's comments re hair covering are offensive, not excellent. I (not Muslim) and many other women cover their hair for religious reasons. I am modern and university educated.

[itsbetterthanabox]

I think some of the things that happen in the USA are very wrong too and here. And we need to fight for change here too! The difference is we don't get killed by the government for protesting and working towards better human rights.
I'm not saying people don't have racist, imperialist opinions on the middles east and I don't agree with trying to westernise the Middle East but I do believe all humans should be free from oppression.

[Ubik1]

Saudi is ruled by bloody millionnaires who are expensively educated and enjoy all the advantages of our western freedoms.

The country is extremely wealthy there is absolutely no reason on earth why they couldn't choose a secular democracy. None at all.

These are men who enjoy fast cars, a playboy lifestyle and all the trappings of wealth.

The west isn't perfect, absolutely it is not. But bloody hell...show some moral backbone. What happens in Saudi is beyond anything g occurring in western countries.

[LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett]

That's an excellent point Ubik.

I also don't think it's patronising or hypocritical to condemn SA. I condemn many things about many countries, after all. And it's entirely possible to have a fair, open society without being 'Western'.

Intelligent voices will be heard - right after we've given one of the owners of said intelligent voice 50 lashes on Friday?

[BiteySwan]

Another Caffe fan here.

[lem73]

Agree with Caffe. The idea that a woman should cover her hair for fear of igniting sexual desire in a man is absolutely repulsive. Men of course are not expected to have any control over themselves.

[MessyRedHair]

Wow, I'm shocked that the LAW is basically "don't get raped".

I had thought that it was vigilante-style mobs doing the stoning. I didn't think that it was supported by the law. Words fail me. Barbarism.

[hackmum]

Caffe: "Saudi Arabia is a moral cess pit. The last thing we should be showing it is respect."

Hear, hear. No more needs to be said on the subject.

[Dimplesandall]

Was delighted that she didnt wear a scarf. Good for her. Like fuck was it unacceptable [fume]

[MessyRedHair]

I'm afraid I agree. Nowhere's perfect, and things weren't great for women 60 years ago but at least even if there's only a 6% conviction rate, rape is still perceived to be a crime. It is horrifying the extent of the misogyny and the brutality.

Ireland was forced in about 1986-7 to introduce a benefit for single mothers by the EU . Ireland didn't want to. It was happy with the way things were. girls lives ruined by an unplanned pregnancy. So I'm glad that the EU didn't pussyfoot about respecting Ireland's right to castigate unmarried women for their pregnancies 100%, by leaving them shunned and starved. Ireland was still a babyfarm for wealthy american couples until 1986, and there were young women who mgiht have escaped the launderettes by a few years, but they wouldn't have been considered respectable. So there's nothing wrong with judgement from outside. I know it's a bit different in that the EU had the power to influence Ireladn to make that change, countries can judge other countries!

[awaynboilyurheid]

Good for Michelle think she is great, It's only hair surprise surprise women have it and men should get over it. Love that she hugged the Queen too!