Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

[ThePost]

FGS, SS do not just snatch babies from the wombs of unsuspecting women. That's just ridiculous.
There must have been a series of MH professionals, legal representatives (including one acting on behalf of the mother) and medical staff who all agreed that based on the particulars of the case at the time, the mother was incapable of acting in the best interests of both herself and her unborn child and unable to give her informed consent to medical procedures. There is no way an OB/GYN and theatre staff would carry out a section on a woman without her express consent unless she were unable or incapable of giving that consent. They would be hauled up before the GMC for misconduct and struck off! I can't imagine that hospital management would allow such a procedure to take place in their facility if they were not also completely sure of the legality and necessity - there's no way they would knowingly take the risk of being sued for squillions.
This is obviously a deeply tragic case where, quite rightly, the world and his wife is not party to all the facts of the case so that the woman, her child and the rest of her family still has some privacy.

[MadameDefarge]

Nobody gets sectioned in the Uk for a panic attack!

Really, get over this. She cannot have simply have had a panic attack.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'I still don't understand why people think it was OK for UK SS to place this child in care in the UK and not involve Italian SS'

We don't know the facts of the case. How can we understand their decision without knowing the facts of the case? The baby had to be placed somewhere short term. Maybe they decided it was better for the baby to have consistency?

'and then send me home'

People from the EU have a right to live here don't they? I don't think she was deported.

[MadameDefarge]

It might quite simply come down to her mum saying she can't manage two kids and a newborn?

If the baby is born in the UK , it is the UK's responsibility to make the best decisions they can according to the information and resources available to them.

If Italian family cannot manage, and Italian SS wash their hands, what the fuck do you expect UK SS to do?

[NiceTabard]

Also.

She has two children at home who were being looked after by her mum while she came here for 2 weeks to have some work training.

Should Uk SS not have been liaising with Italian SS re. their care and state of health and whether this woman was an adequate mother, and potentially strongly recommending that these children be removed?

Should they not have been looking at intially working with the 3 children together all removed from teh mother?

The whole thing makes no sense. It doesn't sound like Essex SS sought communication with Italian SS at all - shouldn't they have done that regarding the other children?

[AcrylicPlexiglass]

I have worked in acute mental health settings for some years and I can honestly say that I have never known someone to be detained under the mental health act for having a panic attack. It really is an extremely unlikely scenario.

[MadameDefarge]

I am not saying this is the case, but it is a plausible scenario.

[NiceTabard]

Yeah bias is coming out here.

"Italian SS wash their hands"

The articles seem to indicate that Italian SS were not alerted or contacted. One of the points of the case.

Yet there is an assumption that they have "washed their hands"

That's just made-up, isn't it.Bias schmias.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Agreeing with those who say that there is almost certainly much, much more to this.

The OP's comment of "I bet they took a kidney at the same time" are especially facile and ignorant.

People seem to be unaware of the full spectrum of mental health issues. John Hemming and the usual crew are involvement is reason to be very wary.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'Why are some people simply unable to say. Well, maybe they fucked up this time.'

Maybe they fucked up. I DON'T KNOW. Neither do you. That's the point. The outrage and upset over a case that you have no knowledge of (other than a ropey report in the telegraph) is foolish.

You have no knowledge of the mother, her health condition, the family, the father, the foster family, the legal proceedings, the SS arrangements and yet you consider yourself able to criticise decisions made by people who do know the specifics of this case.

[MadameDefarge]

Not addressed to acrylic, btw!

I have no idea what Italian SS do...how they are set up, how they function. It would be a mistake I think to assume they function in the same way that UK SS do.

[scottishmummy]

The LA will act upon the presenting situation,and they'll liaise with authorities and nearest relative
There are some huge assumptions going on about alleged poor practice by LA
Such cases are usually used as vehicle to berate Local authority when they cannot respond

[AcrylicPlexiglass]

I guessed as much, madamdefarge! I think we both like the word scenario.:)

[MadameDefarge]

wise words Scottish Mummy, wise words. People would do a deal better to sit back and think about what actual proof they are being offered for the assumptions and bias they are being presented with.

[FairPhyllis]

Well I genuinely don't understand how you can go from presumably holding down a job and travelling to another country and attending a training course (all of which suggest that she was in a good mental state) to overnight being sectioned. Everything that happened afterwards is more or less intelligible to me although I do think it objectionable.

Was a language barrier at play in the original sectioning decision, I wonder? Woman is having panic attack, is foreign, possibly can't speak English well, police assume she is having some sort of serious MH episode and dump her at a mental hospital? Before she knows it she gets sucked into the MH system, has no decent representation, possibly can't speak English and doesn't understand what the hell is going on.

If any of you are HCPs you must surely see that the opacity of cases like this only increase people's worry and fear about MH care and make people less likely to seek help when they need it.

[NiceTabard]

But neither do any of the "SS can do no wrong" people know for sure they acted correctly.

If the woman is such a poor mother that her child was removed by SS and placed directly into care then surely SS have a duty to alert Italian authorities in re. the other children. Surely.

As for this random assumption that Italian SS are - what - an unknown quantity (read - they're shit) that's a huge assumption and somewhat of a xenophobic one. And even if they are shit, UK should still have alerted them about the other children. That's a basic responsibility, surely.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'Well I genuinely don't understand'

That's your problem. If you did understand mental illness, your posts would probably be a lot more relevant.

I really don't think people get sectioned for speaking Italian.

[OutragedFromLeeds]

'But neither do any of the "SS can do no wrong" people know for sure they acted correctly'

No-one has said that.

[scottishmummy]

Let's face it op. Isn't impartial observer,clearly an agenda,an axe to grind
As demonstrated by I bet they took a kidney at the same time too
And a lot of assumptions by various others.in absence of fact,they presume malpractice

[MadameDefarge]

NOBODY GETS SECTIONED IN THE UK FOR HAVING A PANIC ATTACK.

Does that make it any clearer for you?

[NiceTabard]

Well no SM she has linked an article in a mainstream newspaper and another article has been linked as well, both shocking.

Whether OP has an axe to grind or not is not the point when we're talking about stuff reported in the press.

[AcrylicPlexiglass]

"Was a language barrier at play in the original sectioning decision, I wonder? Woman is having panic attack, is foreign, possibly can't speak English well, police assume she is having some sort of serious MH episode and dump her at a mental hospital? Before she knows it she gets sucked into the MH system, has no decent representation, possibly can't speak English and doesn't understand what the hell is going on."

The police cannot just "dump" people at mental hospitals. There are clear legal procedures to be followed under the mental health act. Assessors tend to be very careful when there is a language barrier and there is an obligation to use interpreters etc during mental health act assessments and to do everything possible to ensure effective communication.

Do you think it is usual to call the police when you are having a panic attack, btw?

[scottishmummy]

Can I ask do those of you finding this objectionable understand MHA?
The process and staff involved

[NiceTabard]

Outraged I do understand mental illness, to a certain extent, which is maybe why I have a certain amount of empathy for this woman.

[MadameDefarge]

If you had any idea of the stress the UK mental health services were, under, you would not for a minute believe that a random Italian national, suffering from a panic attack, would not have been monitored, calmed down, assessed, then sent swiftly on her way back to Italy.