Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

I haven't made any judgements, I am asking questions.

You tend to come onto my threads and hurl accusations though so I'd suggest it was you that has the grievance.

'And what could possibly lead to a conclusion like that?'

If her life or long term health was in danger from continuing with the pregnancy and she was unable to consent to treatment?

SM by your reasoning the papers that have reported this also have a "problem" with Essex SS and SW in general.

As the reporting isn't entirely rosy.

And not telling her what was going to happen could be justified in even those circumstances?

Yes indeed SM, one does indeed wonder what the interest is here.

Local authority in uk is guided by uk law,and the child and woman were in uk at time of pre-birth assessment

It does sound like a very tragic situation but I think there could well be justifiable reasons for a forced caesarian in very rare circumstances, yes. I have no knowledge of this particular case but I have worked with people so acutely mentally unwell that they don't believe they are pregnant, believe that the baby inside them is a demon who must be killed/expunged and have tried to get the baby out themselves via methods that could have killed both themselves and their almost full term baby etc. It is very common for people who are psychotic to not believe that they need treatment for physical illnesses and I could imagine a scenario where someone acutely mentally unwell refused to accept that they had pre-ecampsia and needed to deliver their baby early, for example. Bipolar affective disorder is an illness that can cause acute manic psychosis at one pole and extreme depression at the other. Both mania and depression when they are severe can be life threatening and certainly can severely affect someone's ability to make decisions of all kinds. I think it can be difficult to imagine how ill someone with a very serious mental illness can be when they are acutely unwell unless you have experienced it via work or a very ill family member. Even though mental illness is very common, most mental illnesses are spectrum disorders, if you like, and there can be chronic or acute phases, as well as periods of remission and sometimes full recovery. The same person when well can seem utterly unrecognisable from when they were acutely unwell and severe bipolar disorder is perhaps one of the mental illnesses where this contrast is most stark.

This would have been authorised by a judge at the court of protection on the grounds that the mother lacked capacity to make a decision about whether or not to have a caesarian at the time and, if that lack of capacity was accepted, that it was in her best interests to have one. Evidence of the extent of her mental illness would have been presented by adult mental health services and the obstetric reasons for the necessity of the c-section by obstetric experts, I imagine. It is a decision that would not have been taken lightly, of that I am sure.

Hideous situation, difficult decision, no right answers maybe. But would it have been better to risk this woman's life rather than force a c-section? I suspect that we are talking about a life threatening situation here because Court of Protection cases of this nature generally are about making life and death decisions on behalf of someone lacking capacity.

'It is growing up with English language and culture'

Do you know the nationality of the foster carers? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. There are a lot of Italian people in the UK, maybe they've placed the baby with an Italian family?

If anyone of you had seen someone is crisis due a psychotic episode, you would not be so quick to judge.

I have, and it's not pleasant. And it can go on for weeks, months, whatever.

A panic attack would not attract the attention of SS in regard to a pregnant lady.

It would be treated appropriately. And then she would be free to go on her way.

Well I can tell you with utmost certainty that Local Authorities have no regard for the law, and that there are no effective policing of Local Authorities in this regard.

That's helpful Acrylic. Thx

'And not telling her what was going to happen could be justified in even those circumstances?'

How do we know they didn't? A third-hand report based on the account of someone sectioned because they were suffering from mental illness? We don't know, which is why we're not in a position to criticise the decisions that were made.

Holy fucking hell.

Acrylic I'm more bothered by what happened afterwards.

Outraged you think that placing a child with an Italian family in the UK is the same as placing it with an Italian family in Italy? And what of the fact that it's family are all out there? And the fact it is an ITALIAN child?

Funny innit, with grown-ups people in the UK at the moment seem very very keen to "send people home" yet an Italian child is placed in care in the UK away from family siblings grandparents etc and everyone says Oh well yes that's fine.

Why on EARTH was the child not transferred to the Italian SS? I simply don't understand.

Op,You cannot definitively say the woman wasn't told was going on,op.you don't know
I have no recollection of your past threads,so no dont infer gripe where none exist
Your did They take kidney too quip,that's indicative of subjective bias against sw

Acrylic, a very thoughtful and insightful post.

I have a very dear friend who is a forensic psychiatrist and you would weep for the people under his care.

Ladies who want to gouge their eyes out because they cannot bear what they 'see' And, if unsupervised, attempt that very thing.

Extreme mental illness is distressing to all involved.

I know of no professional health care practitioner who would merrily seek an enforced c section simply because the mother had a panic attack.

This is utter nonsense.

The messages I am taking away from this loud and clear are:

If you are unfortunate enough to suffer from panic attacks, fgs don't seek help from the NHS or you may end up being sectioned.

If you are pregnant, it's basically legal to treat you like a walking incubator with no civil rights.

Unfortunately you're taking an incorrect message and your summation is inaccurate

which is not to say starlight that you are not aware of issues regarding this particular authority regarding child welfare.

But unless we actually know what the real circumstances are, here on MN, we cannot possibly judge.

And that is the point. The law prohibits, as it should, any LA from publishing details of their decisions regarding child protection proceedings. Even if they would love to, if only to clear their names.

Therefore the only information we have in the public arena is information provided by a necessarily interested party or parties.

It makes it hard to form a rational decision. But that is where the law leaves us. And I have to think, on balance, that is in the majority of cases,that is indeed in the best interests of the child.

Behind the scenes much stuff is going on which we have no access to.

'Outraged you think that placing a child with an Italian family in the UK is the same as placing it with an Italian family in Italy?'

No, but it's a very good compromise and would deal with the language/culture issue that you were so worried about up thread. I don't know the process of finding foster care in this situation, from your posts I don't think you do either. I would imagine the team involved in placing the baby do, maybe we should leave the decisions to them?

Fair, that is ridiculous.

And you must know that.

FairPhyllis that is the sad thing is that she was the instigator. She sought help, and this is what the consequence has been.

I still don't understand why people think it was OK for UK SS to place this child in care in the UK and not involve Italian SS. That is potentially damaging for the child, and also seriously impedes the mother's recourse routes. It's really not fine. She came here for a 2 week course FGS and we have kept her child. If it were a UK woman whose child was being kept somewhere else the tabloids would be in a frenzy. And rightly. Say I go on a 2 week work trip to Latvia and while I'm out there I have a mental health episode and the authorities drug me, remove my child from my body, place it in care locally and then send me home. WTF? How can people look at this and say "Yes yes that's absolutely fine". Baffling.

The local authority has statutory duty to act within uk legislation
This case was in uk and as such the LA has to be governed by uk law

Indeed SM. It's baffling that people think there is another European remit regarding the care of children born to EU nationals while in the UK.

The child is Italian.

She was here on a 2 week course.

The child has siblings in Italy, and other family.

Italy is a country in Europe with child protection services, it's not like she was from some war-torn violent country.

UK dealt with the situation as it arose but they have no business keeping the child here. The child has family in Italy, and the end result is not known, the child will be better off in care in Italy for numerous reasons.

Why are people so desperate to say this is all A-OK when it looks dodgy as fuck? Public institutions get it wrong all the time. I have an open mind about the CS but the keeping the child here is just bizarre. Why are some people simply unable to say. Well, maybe they fucked up this time.

This sort of total faith in any kind of body bothers me. Stuff goes wrong all the time, in all sorts of organisations, none are immune.