'Cut the green c**p'. Has Cameron had a Damascene moment?

[claig]

"David Cameron has ordered ministers to ditch the ‘green cp’ blamed for driving up energy bills and making business uncompetitive, it is claimed.

...

The source said: ‘He’s telling everyone, “We’ve got to get rid of all this green cp.” He’s absolutely focused on it.’

[[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2510936/Cut-green-c-p-Camerons-private-view-energy-taxation-horrify-environmental-campaigners.html]

Some of us have been saying this for years. But there is always praise in Heaven and among the public for a politician who repenteth and seeth the light!

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

claig, everyone has a vested interest. You have posted repeatedly about the bad things you believe are happening as a result of climate change policies. You are not uninterested in whether those things are stopped, you want them to be stopped, and you believe that will be to your personal benefit (eg lower your taxes) if it happens.

Having a vested interest is not an admission of weakness.

It just requires some critical self-appraisal when considering issues in which the interest plays out.

Anyway, I'm minded to give up at this point, as you obviously are quite keen to stick to your position no matter what.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Ah, ok.


And they have an interest in keeping the poor poor, but by the very specific means of pretending there is a change in the global climate, which message they know will be picked up on and worried about by the middle class, and will in some ways mean that the poor suffer, if the appropriate legislation is used in response to this made-up threat - which it just happens that quite a lot of scientists believe is real anyway?

That's convenient!

[claig]

'but I think your position has more in common with the Flat Earthers'

Socialists like Brown used the trm 'flat-earthers', but he was voted ooutand is now apparently according to what he said 'an ex-politician'.

Cameron has got real, got with the deal and got with the people and has apparently, allegedly said 'cut the green c**p'

Has he made a reckless dash for freedom from the grasp of the elite? Has he tried to unite with the people and show that we are 'all in it together'?

[claig]

'and you believe that will be to your personal benefit (eg lower your taxes) if it happens.'

No, I have no vested interest. Just because I believe that something is wrong, does not mean that I stand to profit from its removal. I think the socialists will increase the taxes on the middle classes anyway over other issues, since that is what the elite want to happen as they move to curtail living standards and to "squeeze the middle" even further.

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

Final thing to say: I'm pretty sure you can find quite a lot more billionaires who are fervently anti-AGW than are fervently pro. I don't think even the wildest of conspiracy theorists has suggested that the Koch brothers, for example, secretly support climate change initiatives.

Bizarrely enough, I know a number of ultra high net worth people (from tens of millions up to a billionaire). None of them makes the bulk of their money from climate change policies, and quite a few of them would agree with your basic stance, claig, that all such policies should be stopped.

Saudi oil sheikhs are also not huge fans of climate change policies.

I'm not really sure who the billionaire elites are who do favour current policies. Elon Musk maybe? Doesn't exactly feel like a movement....

[claig]

Steaming, it's not just the poor that are intended to suffer, it is the middle classes and working classes and 'hardworking' people. It is all of us.

The clever planners have created a fable that people, human beings, are destroying the planet and they use their media to spread the message, alongside pictures of the polar bear, in the belief that the public are too stupid to understand what is being done to them in transitioning them to a 'sustainable' future of low-growth and low consumption and high energy prices and high costs of living and fat cat financiers and people queueing at foodbanks.

But, today, the Daily Mail reported some good news, some hope on the horizon, that apparently a "source" has claimed that the Prime Minister, who is in it with all of us, has had the courage to apparently cry

"cut the green c**'

[claig]

Elon Musk is a fantastic guy. He has nothing to do with it.

'Bizarrely enough, I know a number of ultra high net worth people (from tens of millions up to a billionaire). None of them makes the bulk of their money from climate change policies, and quite a few of them would agree with your basic stance, claig, that all such policies should be stopped. '

Then they aren't the elite. They are in it together with us.

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

Argh, keep trying to stay away, but this is just too juicy!

It's like a true Yorkshireman sketch with Yorkshire replaced by elite.

So, if I've followed what you've said across your threads the elite is defined as "billionaires who believe in climate change and the politicians they sponsor".

This elite therefore appears to comprise of Hank Paulson, Tom Steyer, players in the carbon credit market (size of maybe £100bn vs $4tn+ a day of forex trading), ex-politicians including Tony Blair, Al Gore and Gordon Brown, plus ... who else? I have no idea.

This elite is apparently the real elite, despite owning rather less of the world's wealth than hydrocarbon billionaires and TNCs (hi Vlad! bonjour Exxon! hello Arab oil sheikhs! howdy Koch brothers!) who are in turn either impotent or unworried by the risks that climate change policies have for their sources of wealth.

Tis an extraordinary world you see around you, Claig. Very different from the world I see.

[GeekLovesANYFUCKER]

Is the Daily Mail your sole source of information? If so it speaks volumes about your capacity to research one's viewpoint.

Besides I am prepared to have more taxes and fewer luxuries if it means we can stem the tides of climate refugees, resource wars and the ensuing chaos and death. Is it a bad thing to live more efficiently?

I do remember 15 years ago you could have a coherent debate with climate change deniers as there where scientists who were not convinced about AGW. But scientists always assume that current opinions is just that, current opinion subject to change following new evidence and review of hypothesis. All data is flawed as that is the nature of reality. Income quantities of flawless data would be great but we will always have to work with limited amounts of flawed data as the real world is not a Platonic ideal.

[claig]

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are nothing to do with the elite. They weren't even invited to the Royal Wedding, if I remember rightly.

Lots of socialists are merely puppets of the elite, akin to gofers for them. There are financial players who stand to gain from carbon trading, but they aren't the elite either. They are functionaries for companies whose shares may be held in nominee accounts by people who prefer to remain hidden from public view.

I don't think Arab oil sheikhs have the sort of power the real elite have. Oil sheikhs have money which is often in Swiss bank accounts or in shareholdings in stock markets etc. But real power goes way beyond that and real money is safer even than that.

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

So who are the real elite, then? If it's none of the people I've mentioned, then who the buggery is it?! Some specific names would be good. If you tell me you don't know their names, then how do you know they even exist?

And I would dearly love to know what this special class of assets is that they have access to that keeps their money so safe!

Your previous post seemed to imply the elite included the British Royal Family. Is that right? Is that a permissible thought for a Daily Mail fan? It seems pretty RalphMilibandEvilCommie to me.

[claig]

Be under no illusion, what Cameron has done, if it is true, in saying "cut the green cp', is a very brave thing to do.

He appears to have said it, possibly in a fit of exasperation (and who can blame him for that), within earshot of a "source". When word gets back to the elite about this, they will not be pleased one bit. When they opened their copy of the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph today, they probably almost choked on their lattes in anger.

I wouldn't be surprised if they set their dogs from the Guardian on Cameron in the next few days with all sorts of articles saying how dare he side with the public.

The elite have studied Hans Christian Andersens's story 'The Emperor's New Clothes' in great detail. They know that it started with one brave boy saying the Emperor has no clothes and that was quickly followed by the entire crowd agreeing. They know that if brave Cameron can apparently say 'cut the green cp', then it won't be long before the entire Cabinet is saying it and then the game's up.

[claig]

'So who are the real elite, then?'

I don't know who they are because they prefer to remain hidden. They are not the actors we see on the screen.

'If you tell me you don't know their names, then how do you know they even exist?'

I believe that God exists, but I dont know Him, and I believe the elite exist, but I don't know who they are.

I believe that "by their fruits ye shall know them", and to know what they want, you only have to listen to what their puppets say.

[TheOriginalSteamingNit]

Brave brave Cameron. I expect the shadowy elite are zipping him into a suitcase as we speak.

[claig]

If Cameron has the courage to continue calling a spade a spade and continues to cry 'cut the green c**p', then I think the election will be his by a landslide and deservedly so.

[claig]

I would go as far as to say that if in the Leaders' TV debates at the next election, if Cameron actually has the fortitude to look Miliband or Clegg in the eye and utter the words 'cut the green c**p', then the election is as good as over and a Conservative victory is in the bag.

[claig]

Polls will go through the roof, Tories will be celebrating in jubilation and progressive think tanks will be at a loss about what to do.

[claig]

'Is the Daily Mail your sole source of information?'

No. I read the Guardian to see what the elite think and I read the Daily Mail to see what the people think.

[OhYouBadBadKaleds]

Interestingly the first realisation that increasing CO2 in the atmosphere would lead to a temp rise was in the 1890s, long before politicians etc got involved. Chap called Arrhenius.

It is an incredibly complex and emerging science and thats something that climatologists have struggled to get over to the media. Science is about making errors and having the work peer reviewed so that it becomes more correct as time goes on. The problem is that every error in climate science is scrutinised and held up as an example of which climate science is wrong by those who disbelieve it - it is not.

The other problem is, that climate change is so urgent, that action has to be taken before we have fully understood the problem. We know that it is happening - what is impossible to quantify accurately is how quickly it is happening and exactly what the effects will be. It is an ongoing live experiment on a global scale.

[claig]

"The other problem is, that climate change is so urgent, that action has to be taken before we have fully understood the problem."

They told us that a strike on Syria was so urgent that it had to be taken before the UN inspectors reported on who had used chemical weapons.

The public has got wise to their claims of urgency, catastrophe and doom. We've heard it all before, they keep playing the same ol score, what do they take us for?

By the sound of it, even the Rt Hon David Cameron, Old Etonian and Bullingdon Club member, has had enough and has apparently cried out in exasperation 'cut the green c**p'

[claig]

Thanks for the interesting info about Arrhenius. Just looked him up on wikipedia. He thought that warming would be good for the planet and would mean more crop growth and that the population could be fed better. That is of course, the exact opposite of what the current elite want to hear.

This is what he said

"By the influence of the increasing percentage of carbonic acid in the atmosphere, we may hope to enjoy ages with more equable and better climates, especially as regards the colder regions of the earth, ages when the earth will bring forth much more abundant crops than at present, for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind." (p63)



Arrhenius clearly believed that a warmer world would be a positive change. His ideas remained in circulation, but until about 1960 most scientists doubted that global warming would occur (believing the oceans would absorb CO2 faster than humanity emitted the gas). Most scientists also dismissed the greenhouse effect as implausible for the cause of ice ages, as Milutin Milankovitch had presented a mechanism using orbital changes of the earth (Milankovitch cycles).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

[OhYouBadBadKaleds]

If you cut out the politicians and listen to the climate scientists: people from different nations who actually work in the field the message is climate change is urgent. I know you don't differentiate between politicians and scientists and I realise that there is nothing I could say to change your mind on that.

[claig]

"for the benefit of rapidly propagating mankind"

That is diametrically opposed to the wishes of the elite and the message of their puppets.

[claig]

"If you cut out the politicians and listen to the climate scientists"

But you can't do that. The IPCC report of 2007 had errors in it. People like Gordon Brown use the IPCC reports when they have their global conferences.

The taxes, the regulations, the policies are set by poticians and puppets, not by scientists, and the puppets tend to ignore scientists who disagree with them and call them "mavericks", "deniers" and Gordon Brown called some people who didn't believe in manmade climate change 'flat-earthers'.

But. today, we read reports that Cameron, in it together at last with the public, has had the guts to express what millions of people across the world have been saying while he was hugging hoodies, eating pasties and dancing on ice with huskies

'cut the green c**p'

[claig]

Prince Charles is not a scientist, but he is all in favour of "sustainable living" and he sometimes addresses politicians.

'The Prince of Wales has condemned climate change sceptics for their "corrosive" impact on public opinion and accused them of playing a "reckless game of roulette" with the planet.

In a speech at a European parliament climate conference in Brussels, he also warned environmentalists they needed to do much more to convince people to adopt a greener lifestyle.

He challenged the green lobby to start selling the benefits of sustainable living instead of focusing on what people should give up.

Questioning why the public had not eagerly embraced sustainable living'

....

"climate change sceptics who deny the vast body of scientific evidence that shows beyond any reasonable doubt that global warming has been exacerbated by human industrialised activity."

The implication, he said, was that those who accept the evidence of hundreds of scientists around the world are "secretly conspiring to undermine and deliberately destroy the entire market-based capitalist system which now dominates the world".

www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/feb/10/prince-charles-climate-change-sceptics


'exacerbated by human industrialised activity'
That is what the climate lobby wants to limit in order to provide what the rich privileged elite call 'sustainable living', which boils down to a cut in living standards. low-growth, low consumption, high energy and water prices, a higher cost of living and a proliferation of financial fat cats ripping off the public and prospering from carbon emission trading whle ordinary people's carbon emissions will probably end up being regulated and restricted either by price or government decree. They think they can convince the public to go along with it by showing them pictures of the polar bear and by saying that the planet will be destroyed if they don't go along with it.

But, today, we are told that our own Prime Minister, has allegedly said
'cut the green c**p'

We can only wish him luck, strength and Godspeed.