You've GOT to watch newsnight tonight shocker on FGM

[Screwfox]

Watch this bloke justify it.
Are you a scratching?!

Full report on later apparently.

[williaminajetfighter]

agree completely that male circumcision is equally dreadful although FGM more brutal and results in many more health problems I think. Making it illegal for hospitals or communities to perform would make sense..

However have a feeling that won't go down in the jewish community!

[Lastofthepodpeople]

There is definitely a lot more that can be done to identify children at risk and protect them.

DH is a recently qualified teacher at a secondary school with a large immigrant population. A little while ago, we were discussing children being taken overseas to be forcibly married (not FGM but I think there are parallels) and I asked if he had any training as to the sort of red flags that might show if a child is at risk, and he said they'd been given no training at all which I thought was shocking. They have a social worker attached to the school (I think) who is supposed to deal with problems but none of the teachers are trained on what to look out for.

There needs to be a concerted effort to provide teachers and doctors with the necessary training to recognise possible red flags indicating a child might be at risk and a procedure in place so they know what to do.

[ANormalOne]

Ermmmmm, what about MGM? At least FGM is illegal, in all it's variations, MGM is perfectly legal.

[Lastofthepodpeople]

I think if there were the will at government level, there could be significant progress made.

Like someone else said, if someone chopped off another body part, that child would be automatically removed and the person responsible would face prosecution.

A zero tolerance approach could make a huge difference.

[TheGirlFromIpanema]

Firstly I should say I agree that male circumcision is also a horrible, cruel thing to do.

But and it is a but, FGM and MGM are not comparable crimes at all.

ANormal - you could campaign for laws to be changed regarding MGM.
At the moment though it is already against the law for FGM to happen, yet sadly it still does, and no prosecutions have been brought

[Lottapianos]

We had some training at work (NHS worker) the other day about culture and religion in the south Asian community. FGM was discussed briefly (it wasn't the main focus of the course) and the trainer pointed out that FGM is not mentioned anywhere in the Koran and is nothing to do with Islam. She said that MGM is a requirement of Islam and that her personal view was that MGM was also wrong, but that 'you can't challenge people's religion' - meaning that because it's written down in a holy book, it's totally non-negotiable. I found this a really depressing statement, although I could see where she was coming from

But completely agree with other posters - if someone wanted to chop off another part of their child, it would be considered indefensible, quite rightly.

[EweHaveGoatToBeKiddin]

It saddens me that FGM is illegal and treated with disgust but the male equivalent (circumcision) is legal due to 'religious beliefs'.

These 'religious beliefs' are just as ridiculous as the claim that a 'clitoris makes women itch and leak water'.

We are striving for equality in everything else these days, why not this?

Mutilating a child's body should be illegal for both genders, not just girls.

People should be able to make their own minds up whether or not they want pieces of their flesh scraped off. And they can't reasonably make this decision until they are an adult.

Anyway, rant over. Glad I didn't watch. The laughter at the end of the above clip was enough to turn my stomach.

[WhatWillSantaBring]

I can't remember who it was up thread who said that what needs to change (amongst many things) is the actual law itself. Because the act of FGM happens once and (generally?) overseas, I can see just how hard it must be to prosecute the perpetrator of that assault. So change the threshold. If you are the parent/guardian of a child and you knew or reasonably ought to have known that FGM would happen, then that should be a crime.

Obviously, you'd have to put in safeguards for those poor women (and I'm sure there are plenty) who have no say in this, (perhaps it can be a defence to say that you reported your suspicions) but at least that would be a start to changing the culture?

Agree also on posters in hospitals etc highlighting that its a crime and the potential consequences?

And FFS, we need to stop being so fucking PC about "oh, you can't just monitor girls in the affected population, because that's discriminatory". Surely its no different from only screening certain ethnicities for sickle cell anaemia?

And I was also wondering about MGM? Apart from the age and risk of complications, genuinely please someone tell me why it is different?

[Lottapianos]

I work in Children's Centres and I have seen posters about FGM, saying that no religious doctrine supports FGM and it can leave women with horrific health problems.
Agree there is nowhere near enough publicity about it though

I think the difference with MGM is that it doesn't change sexual function or the experience of sexual pleasure, whereas FGM often does. I agree it's still utterly barbaric though.

[handcream]

I agree with others that it is fear of being accused of being racist that is often stopping anyone making a stand on it. Its a vile process and how a mother can do that to her daughter is beyond me tbh.

I didnt realise that there were NO prosecutions. It shows that something is stopping the UK from bringing people to court for this horrible horrible crime against someone else.

[handcream]

I do also wonder whether its to do with male dominance over women. Sew it up and then you will be under our control.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

Of course it is, Handcream. Gotta control that itch.

[Lottapianos]

'I do also wonder whether its to do with male dominance over women'

It totally is handcream. Sew it up and your 'honour' will be intact. And you won't experience any sexual pleasure so you won't feel tempted to put it about before you get sold married

Women who haven't been mutilated are considered unclean and not fit for marriage. In a culture where women have no worth other than as wives and mothers, I can begin to understand why mothers insist on their daughters being cut, where the choice is to do what you're told or become a complete social outcast. Not defending the practice for a second but I think that putting all the blame on the women in the situation is short sighted. Women in these cultures don't have any right to make their own decisions, they have to follow the rules set by men

[chillinwithmyyonis]

I think before you can have an intelligent debate on FGM, you perhaps need to educate yourself on the demographics of where FGM occurs, Africa is a continent not a country. Its a bit thick to say you're concerned about 'african' children at your dc's school or 'african' families that you know, when you don't actually know what country they are from and whether FGM occurs in that country.

I have both Nigerian (christian south) and South African IL's and they'd frankly be insulted if I brought up FGM as it is not part of their culture at all. Actually along large swathes of mid to south african countries and far north eastern countries, according to WHO data, it doesn't occur or there is no data to state otherwise. And apparently it also occurs in the middle east, asia and parts of central and south america.

[bemybebe]

I am totally against circumcision of boys unless medically required. However, to fight genital mutilation as a gender-neutral issue is to disregard the enormous differences between MG and FG mutilation.

There were studies and FGM phycological and physiological trauma to girls just cannot compare to that of boys. Sad, but this is not gender neutral. both are disgusting though.

[MrsSchadenfreude]

Chillin, it is certainly practised quite widely in Nigeria though, although more among the Muslim population. So perhaps less of the "a bit thick"? It occurs across a wide band of the continent, from East, where it is more prevalent, to west. It is not practised, as far as I am aware, in the south - roughly from Cameroon down.

[scallopsrgreat]

"It saddens me that FGM is illegal and treated with disgust" But it isn't treated with disgust. That is the whole problem. You might treat it with disgust, I might treat it with disgust but those with the power to do anything about it don't. That is why it is still happening. That is why there are no prosecutions.

[pyrrah]

I believe that MGM is no longer carried out under the NHS except for medical reasons and that parents now have to pay privately for it to be done in a clinic (not the kitchen table).

A male friend of mine who was circumcised as an adult said that it had caused a considerable decrease in sensation and sexual pleasure for him.

(A rather odd reason for not circumcising men is that the foreskin doesn't form keloid scarring and so can be used to create things like new eyelids should the owner be badly burnt or disfigured... I'm sure you all wanted to know that!)

I did see a lot of posters on FGM in the antenatal dept of St Thomas's in London and details of helplines should your daughter be at risk.

[WetAugust]

It's become 'the old chestnut' that gets regularly resurrected by the BBC, the Press etc - but no one actually does anything to stop it.

But at least the DPP has told us why there have been no prosecutions - because they have been waiting for a victim to walk into a Police Station and press charges.

They may as well wait until hell freezes over.

[WetAugust]

I did see a lot of posters on FGM in the antenatal dept of St Thomas's in London and details of helplines should your daughter be at risk.

If that statement was not such a sad indictment of how little we understand the pressures and culture that permits this - it would be funny. Unfortunately it's just ridiculous.

[MoominMammasHandbag]

I think there is evidence that MGM leads to decreased sexual pleasure: many millions of nerve endings in the foreskin itself plus desensitisation of the unprotected penis.
I may be cynical but I imagine if male genital mutilation was illegal then the law would be far more vigorously enforced.
And the excuses that mutilators of both sexes trot out are virtually identical.

[Lottapianos]

I stand corrected on the 'no reduction of sexual sensation' issue re MGM. Just another reason to loathe the practice even more

[Clawdy]

The "spoon in pants" thing is a great idea, but surely now so many people are discussing it in many areas of the media,all that will happen is that every girl's luggage and clothing will be searched by the families before they leave?

[MylinhMumsnet]

Hi everyone - if you're interested, do check out our site content on FGM, including this newly launched video page about a school's awareness-raising project.

You can also catch up on what the Gov is doing to tackle FGM in the UK (and to support its eradication worldwide) here, from DFID minister Lynne Featherstone's MN webchat on FGM earlier this year.

Thanks
Mylinh

[motownmover]

I also do not think the spoon idea will work - if people who are claiming asylum because of fears of fgm and they are still being sent back then how will it really help anyone else travelling?

Great reporting on NNight though - fantastic reporting.