Soldier beheaded in Woolwich and it took police 20 mins

[bkgirl]

Why am I not surprised? 20 minutes, what chance do we have with this pathetic response. As for the barracks...why couldn't someone come out with a gun and at least prevent these guys from attacking anyone else. Who was guarding the army base - do they have guns? Dreadful.

[bkgirl]

EldritchCleavage, there are similarities. The republicans used the cell structure very effectively - this at first glance looks similar. Their employment of lilly whites, again used by al-Quaeda. The detonation of bombs in public places, certainly the people of Omagh would relate to the 7/7 victims.

No, of course I think it would be horrific to see London turn in to Belfast or Lurgan circa the 70's. Having lived here then, it was horrific. That said, the grim reality is that I would be amazed if this is a one off, and would far rather the security was improved with the funding necessary to have an effective and prompt response at the very least on obvious targets. No, you cannot protect everyone, everywhere but a garrison town, palace or the city of London should enjoy a ramped up protection. That is just basic.

[CorrStagnitto]

Jeez this is the worst thought out OP ive read in a long time, talk about jumping in all guns blazing

[VerySmallSqueak]

I think everyone ,both police and public,did what they could as fast as they could.
I think there were some remarkable acts of bravery,and the people who dealt with the scene as it unfolded will have images that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

[SgtTJCalhoun]

I actually believe all police officers should be routinely armed, in the cities at least but I respect that many do not and understand why.

I don't think in this instance armed met officers would have helped as those in the barracks were not aware of what was happening. I do think there is a real risk of copycat attacks and I think that probably, yes, armed met officers should work in conjunction with armed soldiers to create a strenuous defence of our barracks. Ime even the youngest soldier is highly trained and instinct definitely takes over. I was only 21 and 5 ft 4, I challenged an intruder once and I knew exactly what I was doing and how far I would have gone. Luckily it ended up being a harmless incident. I think that had there been awareness of what was occurring yesterday and armed soldiers on the nearby gate were able to respond with immediacy this tragedy could have been prevented. I do not think we give our armed forces nearly enough credit or ability to protect themselves.

I am sure there are plenty of holes in what I've said and I don't claim to have all the answers but I thought very hard about it and combined with my experience in and with the forces as a child, serving soldier and then a wife this is what I think.

[bkgirl]

Thank you SgtTJCalhoun and to all who responded to this thread.

We no doubt, all agree that the loss of this young man was just appalling and we can agree that the women who attended the scene in the immediate aftermath showed immense courage - as did the police officers.

I think, those involved with monitoring terrorism will re-assess the situation and will take whatever action they deem necessary to help cope with future attacks.

I wish everyone well.

[lemonmuffin]

Pagwatch - thu 23-May-13 13:15:48
"The focus should be on the horror that poor family must be experiencing and the foul mindset that led those two animals to defy every basic measure of humanity and then gloat about it"

Yep, I think most of us on this thread are in agreement on that. Glad you've finally come out and said the same.

[Pagwatch]

Unless one is astoundingly thick it is impossible to assume that i ever meant anything else.

Those who appear less interested in the bereaved family are those oh cannot wait to leap on a bandwagon which seeks to oppertunistically take a pop at the police before the incident is barely over.

But then thickness clearly bounds.

[unlucky83]

From what has been reported I think the police did the best they could in the situation...
Those men stood around and waited and got filmed on mobiles because they wanted as much media attention as possible - which they have got.
It looks like the poor soldier died very quickly - no matter how fast the police response was it was too late for him.
IF they had gone into the primary school - or starting attacking others -
I really believe (or hope) that we haven't become such a state of dependents that none of the bystanders would have tried to stop them ... in fact the 3 women did DO something and all that was necessary until the police arrived ...

[Featherbag]

You sound like a total idiot OP. if you think the police response time was unacceptable, blame the government for cutting the police force. The guards at the barracks were guarding the barracks, not the surrounding streets - it could easily have been a diversion designed to allow someone to deliver a bomb to the barracks. And bottom line, the ONLY people to blame for this despicable act are the scum who carried it out.

[bkgirl]

Featherbag, I sound like someone who grew up with terrorism and lived beside an army camp at the height of the troubles. I sound like someone who escaped a kidnap attempt by terrorists and survived more than one explosion.It's called realism. Frankly soldiers or armed police must have the authority to tackle incidents that happen near a camp - not just inside it. Real life terrorists are not from some pythonesque reality whereby they can fire/bomb/machete whoever as long as they are say 2 ft from the camp gate and those inside can only wave their guns. I understand armed police officers had to come from Charlton. What was the distance from the camp - less than Charlton I expect? This is CRAZY. This base, like others IS a target. Garrison towns need extra protection, at the very least some sort of nearby armed response.Yes I think the police are under funded, yes I think the army are under funded and yes I'd attribute this murder to those that carried it out and those who radicalised them. I have come to conclude that more lives will be needlessly lost by if the british public continue to stick their heads in the sand and don't get realistic with protecting those who have given so much. I really hope for soldiers like Lee, that cub scout leaders are NOT left to talk down terrorists whilst non-armed police sit at a safe distance. I am NOT blaming the non armed police, I am blaming politicians for the way they have enriched the banking and insurance industries whilst starving our essential services of basic funds. We were lucky these individuals decided to hang around and not attack anyone else. I am sure this is down to the brave women who with breath taking clarity managed to divert their attention. Frankly, will we always be this blessed with such heroic members of the public? Terrorism is not generally so selective.

[bkgirl]

Incidentally, I spent 10 years working with MANY bomb victims and their families. I understand the stages of grief and the difference such a violent death or injury can make to the emotions of a person (compared to a natural death). Unfortunately do I know all too well what this soldiers family will have to go through and frankly, it just makes me very annoyed and sad. As I said my own family and friends have been through similar things. It never heals, you just learn to live with it and TRY not to let the people who did this, get the opportunity to do it again.

[lemonmuffin]

Pagwatch: "oh cannot wait to leap on a bandwagon which seeks to oppertunistically take a pop at the police before the incident is barely over"

Okay. The above sentence is not making too much sense. Take a deep breath and have another go at explaining.

[lemonmuffin]

Actually don't bother. After recent events it's really not worth it.

[Pagwatch]

Are you having trouble?
I take your point about not bothering. It's a simple situation but seems to be eluding you.

A dreadful, hideous event takes place. People post on mn to express horror, revulsion at the idea that anyone could do such a thing. People also post their deep sympathy for the victim.

Instead of support or sympathy this thread is posted soley to take a pop at the police. As it was started while events were still unfolding, it struck me and several other posters as oppertunistic sniping, a spineless attempt to exploit the death of this poor man to make a cheap point.
That is why I posted 'have some respect'

You then decided that I was implying some sympathy for the murderers, a point so illogical, incoherent and ridiculous that a five year old would be ashamed to have been so dumb.

Does that help or are some of the words too big?

[Onesleeptillwembley]

Survived a terrorist kidnap attempt?

[hobnobsaremyfavourite]

Pagwatch give up some people really are hard of thinking.

[scaevola]

The incident was 2 blocks from the camp gates, and not line of sight.

[Ledkr]

Does that help or are some of the words too big?
Ha ha new mn phrase.

[Madamecastafiore]

Can this be deleted too. Just to post 'soldier beheaded' makes me want to cry. He was a dad and a husband. Have some bloody respect.

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Afaik he wasn't either.

It is grim title.

[lemonmuffin]

Thank you so much for that explanation Pagwatch. I managed to decipher most of the words (me being so thick an all)

I would point out to you why you're talking total bollocks but as we've agreed, arguing the toss with strangers total twats on the internet is pretty futile at the moment given the circumstances.

[Pagwatch]

Equally, as you say we have agreed, you could ponder why it is imposible for you to simply acknowledge that you misunderstood what I posted.
And that therefore your implication that I sympathised with the murderers was vile, stupid and unwarranted.

But I am guessing that anything as gracious and dignified as a simple apology would be completely beyond you.

[Varya]

My understanding is that arms have to be issued to officers in an orderly way and that does take a bit of time. Condolences to the family of Drummer Lee Rigg.

[lemonmuffin]

Nice post. Lots of lovely big words.

And completely missing the point --yet again-

[Pagwatch]

What point did you have ? It's sort of lost admist what i think are attempts at sarcasm.
What was it that led you tsupportingly at I was sort of supporting the murderers?