Soldier beheaded in Woolwich and it took police 20 mins

[bkgirl]

Why am I not surprised? 20 minutes, what chance do we have with this pathetic response. As for the barracks...why couldn't someone come out with a gun and at least prevent these guys from attacking anyone else. Who was guarding the army base - do they have guns? Dreadful.

[TigerFeet]

Swearing isn't bullying. I would say that this being an emotive issue brings on the strong language alongside the strong sentiment.

Having armed police on the scene earlier wouldn't have changed anything. The attackers had made their point and were only waiting for the police to arrive.

Short of everyone, not just service personnel but everyone, having their own personal armed guard whenever they left barracks I really don't see how attacks such as these can be stopped. That poor, poor soldier was incredibly unlucky.

[JaquelineHyde]

Lemon - what an utterly ridiculous question to pose!

[squeelybean]

I think the response time does need to be discussed as a potential issue for any further attacks.

It was a prolonged attack on an unarmed man in a hugely populated area with a school very nearby and outside the grounds of Army barracks.

What if these men had turned on the crowd or entered the school?

I dont think the police can in any way be critisised but maybe they do need to look at more officers being trained with tasers or alternate methods enabling first responders to be able to do something which doesnt mean waiting for others to attend. Serving police officers must live in fear of situations like this because technically they become bystanders in the same way the public are. That doesnt fuel confidence when the public look to the police to stop a situation like this and take control immediately.

This was reported as an horrific machete attack in the first calls, that should have triggered a very quick response and if it does take 14 mins in a London borough then God knows how slow they would be in other areas of the country where we still have police stations covering vast areas of land with not much inbetween each large community.

Maybe the answer is to arm more officers but nobody wants that so the situation cant change.

I was also surprised the Barracks doesnt have armed Military police guarding it. I always thought an Army community would be seen as a potential terrorist target.

Just goes to show i know nothing

[bkgirl]

Army DID respond to attacks outside bases in Northern Ireland. So could it be that it is considered inappropriate to do in England what they did here? The point is, terrorism will dictate the response whether you like it or not. It only takes a few attacks to generate a new reality. Sure, it would be nice if it wasn't necessary but when the uk has been involved in prolonged conflict elsewhere, you simply cannot expect to stay free from attacks. The security forces have done an excellent job thus far of stopping attacks but it only takes a few to get through (as the London 7/7 bombings show).

[lemonmuffin]

Thank you for that insightful response JH.

[pooka]

What really hacks me off with some people is that the default knee jerk reaction is to criticise.

And then to mutter and grouse when information contradicts that position. Like in this case, starting of as op did with criticising the police/barracks response. Then to be set straight, and extra info from police commander, and no backing down or retraction or anything positive to say about the police response.

[JaquelineHyde]

The perfect response considering the question I am sure you agree.

[lemonmuffin]

If you did your best with your response then that's all that matters.

[Pagwatch]

LemonMuffin

I am in strong disagreement with the OP because she started this thread, posed this question almost as that poor young man was lying in the street.

The focus should be on the horror that poor family must be experiencing and the foul mindset that led those two animals to defy every basic measure of humanity and then gloat about it.

To start a sneery, grudging snipe at the police is not helpful as far as I can see.

[EldritchCleavage]

It's horrible. You are angry. You want everything to be simple and short and sorted out in no time like some ridiculous Steven Seagal film.

But it isn't. Fortunately, the police and army are more intelligent and have better judgment than the OP.

[Pagwatch]

And yes, the refusal to acknowledge that the entire premis of the thread was wrong is pretty mealy mouthed too.

[CaptChaos]

Lemon the anger I feel towards OP is because they have posted a knee jerk and ill thought out response to a tragedy.

On what planet would that equate to the anger anyone would feel towards 2 men who ran down and then hacked to death an unarmed man, in broad daylight, on a London street?

Was your question serious, or merely an attempt to goad? Is that insightful enough for you?

[SgtTJCalhoun]

I am ex army and when I was in we had armed guards, soldiers on the gates and patrolling the perimeter, I did it myself many, many times. Now though it it quite often contracted out to civilian security companies albeit wearing uniforms, though not army ones, or MOD police.

Even when we did armed patrols there are extremely strict procedures and codes of conduct to follow. It's a very grey area as to what armed soldiers would have felt able to do in this instance.

[piprabbit]

Given that at least one eye witness of the attack thought that what he had seen was a car accident and people helping an RTA victim (when what he actually saw was them stabbing a man), I'm not sure why the people inside the barracks would have been able to better understand the situation if they had been able to see it on CCTV.

[Onesleeptillwembley]

Stop advertising your ignorance OP, and fuck off, there's a dear.

[Onesleeptillwembley]

Actually I'll add; when the police come and tell you how to watch Jeremy Kyle then you can tell them how to do their job.

[EldritchCleavage]

The Northern Ireland experience just isn't relevant here. Different threat, different times, different response.

Anyone who thinks the fight against identified, organised, hierarchical and yes, rational paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland is the same as or even of relevance to the current problem with chaotic, unknown Islamist al-Quaeda inspired nutters is just not thinking about it hard enough.

And plenty of what was done in Northern Ireland wasn't right and didn't help. I certainly would not stand happily by and let politicians, police and the armed forces turn London into a giant version of Belfast or Lurgan circa 1975. Fortunately, I don't think any of them is going to be stupid enough to suggest it.

[Longdistance]

Maybe no one called them, thinking someone else had called them.

[bkgirl]

Obviously I think the actions of those that murdered the young man is absolutely abhorrent. I agree, I accepted the initial reports of the timings served up by the national media as being truthful. If they are wrong - fine I will totally accept that.

I believe most police do a great job in the circumstances (examples like Sapphire I would like to think are the exception). However, if the army are not allowed to respond to nearby incidents then armed police must. If this means armed police are present at the entries of barracks then surely that is what is necessary until the threats have been lifted.

The family of the murdered young man WILL be asking questions.

These extremists could have gone in to a primary school in those 14 - 20 minutes, what then? After all, certain people with their viewpoint have executed little girls in the past for merely attending school.

Internal defence needs upgraded pronto, I have no doubt that is exactly what Cobra discussed.

[bkgirl]

Thank you SgtTJCalhoun. Do you think armed met officers being stationed at the entries to barracks is a reasonable or feasible response to the current threat levels?

[creighton]

does every police station have armed police? where is the nearest armed response unit based? travelling around london is hard. i would assume that the police arrived as quickly as they could. it seems that the officer who 'took action' had the situation under control.

[hobnobsaremyfavourite]

how do you KNOW that his family will be asking questions ? what vile arrogance born from ignorance

[JaquelineHyde]

bkgirl I think you may need to step away from this thread now.

Yes the two men could have gone into the school in that time...they could have done anything in that time. Actually they could have just gone straight to any school and murdered several children instead of the innocent soldier, does that mean that we should be upgrading security at all schools and everywhere else because of what could possibly, maybe happen at some point in the future?

There will always be threats, should we have armed police or soldiers guarding all possible threat sites?

Also you claim to know that the murdered man's family will be asking questions...How do you know that?

You also have no doubt what was discussed at the Cobra meeting today...How do you know that?

[AuntieStella]

ARVs cruise round London or park up in areas where they think they may be close to need. Their deployment is often intelligence led (Trident), and to put their levels of activity into a bit of perspective, the lowest number of gun crime incidents in London any month in the last year was 118.

[EldritchCleavage]

This is the Mumsnet thread equivalent of running around screaming "Aaargh! We're all going to DIE!"

Well, maybe. Or the OP could just calm down.