Why are so many people on MN so anti benefit bashing?

[Bearbehind]

Genuine question- although I am well aware I will probably get flamed for this.

Osbourne's comments in the wake of the Philpotts's about benefits supporting lifestyles which are disagreeable to most tax payers today has touched a nerve with many for varying reasons.

I've always been of the opinion that benefits should be sufficient for the basic necessities but shouldn't cover luxuries like cigarettes, alcohol, Sky, mobile phones or holidays, as they shouldn't be an alternative to working (obviously only for those people capable of working) yet so many threads on here say its none of our business to question what benefits are spent on?

Why is it so many people are happy for their taxes to fund the luxuries listed above for others when they can't afford some of them for themselves after paying tax!? Am I missing something?

[MadameDefarge]

over 90% of people who claim JSA are back in work within 12 months. these are sort of figures we should bear in mind. I am nearly 50. I have spent all my life working and paying into national insurance..I have also been receipt of benefits when working. and now I am not working (due to my business not making it, and sadly having to make my employees redundant). should I be bashed? why not allow that all those years of paying taxes and NI ensures I will not starve and my ds will not suffer during the the short period of time I need to get back on my feet? why demonise me for choosing to pay for internet access because my ds needs it for school work? why demonise me at all? It is an outrage. All those years of paying into an insurance scheme which apparently means I get things for free...hardly. I'd challenge most of the benefit bashers to have got to where I am in life without claiming benefits. shameful. shameful shameful.

[sleepyhead]

Pamalat - I presume you reported the two people you "know" are working and claiming benefits.

What is the solution to this? Honestly, tell me what is the solution to the minority (and I know you think it's a majority but there are no figures that support you on this - it just feels like a majority because the news reports concentrate on the exceptional cases like the Iraqi woman subletting the £2mil mansion - allegedly) that doesn't end up affecting the innocent?

Because if you make the rules stricter, start handing out food vouchers, start banning people from buying certain goods with state support income then you make things harder for the majority who aren't "scroungers", who work hard, who are desperately trying to make ends meet - who could be you one day.

The government accept that accountants find loopholes for every single tax avoidance scheme in existence so that the rich can avoid paying their share by exploiting schemes in a way that wasn't intended. They accept that this is inevitable if they want to encourage certain behaviours (saving for example). They accept that exploitation of loopholes is what you pay to not have an insanely complicated tax system or to have to do away with tax breaks altogether. But heaven forfend a tiny proportion of benefit claimants gets away with the same thing, albeit on a miniscule scale...

[CelticPixie]

I object to the lumping in together of all benefit claimants. I've had to claim JSA in the past and found it totally soul destroying, certainly not something I'd aspire to. It's a pittance and you get spoken to like dirt by some jobsworth with a superiority complex. A horrible experience and I feel for anyone who's unemployed at the moment.

[Bearbehind]

freddie I'm banging my head against a brick wall too- you don't seem to understand that my point is I would never chose to live off benefits and if shit happened I would do all I could to support myself. I appreciate I may be unable to avoid it and I would be grateful for the benefits if I relied on them but I would never decide to live off the state if I had alternatives.

[usualsuspect]

Is it your cousins best mates dad, that choses to live on benefits, OP?

[hugoagogo]

It was interesting to see the expression 'the deserving poor' quoted earlier, how different to 'scroungers'.

[usualsuspect]

chooses*

[usualsuspect]

Did you spot someone in Asda buying fags and vodka with their FREE money?

[SanityClause]

Everyone, except for about the top 5%, are net takers from the system.

So, okay, you might not receive any benefits (not even child benefit, or a pension -yet!) But, you get policing, education, health, civic amenities etc, all subsidised by others who are putting more into the system than they take out.

Why are you not paying your way, you scrounger?

We live in quite a nice house, and have a nice lifestyle. But we rarely eat out or have a takeaway. These are things that people we know, who are on lower incomes than us, take for granted as beng a normal expense that they can afford. Why is it for me to say that they are wrong to spend their money on that, because to us it is a luxury?

Benefit bashing is easy to do. It's convenient for people in a society to find a hate figure to blame. I think you'll find historical evidence for this.

[expatinscotland]

No, usual, they were in Oxfam buying goats.

[montage]

"Osbourne's comments in the wake of the Philpotts's about benefits supporting lifestyles which are disagreeable to most tax payers today has touched a nerve with many for varying reasons."

Is that really how you see it? His comments "touched a nerve"?

I think many people saw it as morally reprehensible and quite unbelievable that he sought to use the deaths of 6 children to score a political point.

If you see his comments as acceptable but just "touching a nerve" then there isn't any point engaging with you really.

[Footface]

There is also a massive jugdementak attitude that if you claim benefits and work, then you should bloody well work harder, longer it have a second job.

Just because you are paid a low salary doesn't mean you work less harder than someone on 40k.

[usualsuspect]

Did you overhear 2 girls in costa saying they were going to have more babies to get a bigger council house?

Or was that someone else?

[Pagwatch]

It's a funny old thread.
I can't quite get past the idea that people are supposed to be in favour of bashing.
What on earth is the positive outcome of bashing any group?
Why is it odd that people don't like a particular group getting a kicking?

[RowanMumsnet]

Hi there

We've moved this thread to In the News now as it's not really an AIBU

We know this is an emotive topic but please remember the Talk Guidelines

Thanks

[MadameDefarge]

every society chooses to stamp on the feet of those further down the ladder than them in an economic crisis. all of those thirty odd years I worked and paid my taxes and employed people mean nothing, nothing to those who fear the feral feckless. Wait until their wtc is gone, their ctc is gone, their cb is gone. and see how they manage. wait until their position is made redundant. and for those of who who object to big tvs, when you have no hope ever of owning your own home, why should you not spend any spare cash on a good tv?

[usualsuspect]

Can you move it to the Goading topic?

[sleepyhead]

So how do you suggest that we target, with laser precision, those people who choose to live off benefits (which doesn't suggest to me that they've got a lot going for them since living off benefits doesn't exactly get you much of a life) without punishing those who didn't make that choice?

That's what you have to accept. Any changes that make things harder for those you label (correctly or no) scroungers will make things harder for everyone on benefits. The tighter you draw that net, the more you'll catch.

We can't even find a way to make Philip Green admit that it isn't his Monaco-based wife who's making all that lovely money, how do you think we'd be more successful in targeting some people who are content to live on fifty odd quid a week in a damp tenement in the East End of Glasgow? And even if we can, don't you think that PG would make a riper plum?

[pamelat]

I didn't report them, I should have. In fact if it happens again I will do

I don't like being a "grass" but recognise that this is hypocritical!! It's difficult when the person is someone that you are related to and is in many ways less fortunate, at least financially, than you :(

Maybe the stand we need to take is a zero tolerance to the abuse of it, a wider knowledge of how to report and people doing it. A wider awareness of figures of abuse ofthe system. I'd like to know how they worked these out as it's not something you'd self report? Perhaps not even anonymously?

It may sound patronising but perhaps we need re-educating on welfare criteria and getting the non welfare supported people on side.

There's a lot of tension isn't there between different groups, mainly stemming from a lack of awareness?

I'm not sure what this awareness would bring, but it would alter opinions on both sides, it can only be a good thing

Maybe if the two "sides" joined up a little those abusing it would fltered out.

The abuse of the system is the thing to focus on, even if as minuscule as claimed, as it's the focus of popular opinion. I think.

[GrowSomeCress]

Generalising and benefit bashing is bad... as is doing the equivalent of covering your ears and screaming 'lalalala' to any possible mention of any problem of the system ever, as some posters are doing

[Freddiemisagreatshag]

I was reported. When I was on benefits. For having a boyfriend living with me.

I didn't. It was a malicious report.

But the weeks it took to sort out were not fun I can assure you.

[poppypebble]

MadameDefarge is quite right, people do fear those who have little. The fear is that they have little to lose. In 1596 Edward Hext claimed that the country was overrun by 'desperate and wicked persons' because some people were starving.

[expatinscotland]

Every time I see Gidiot, he touches a nerve.

The MPs subsidised bar - a fucking bar - and canteen costs the taxpayer about £6m/annum. They have a £15/day meal allowance. On top of their £64K salary for a job with 12 weeks holiday, £400/month grocery allowance, live in a free home in London (a bought one, often enough) courtesy of the taxpayer and many claim over £100K/annum in expenses/annum.

Every time I see that man, I think about that and you'd better believe it touches a nerve because he is forever preaching to the rest of us about a life he knows sweet FA about.

[StealthPolarBear]

Well ŷou know it is hard to afford food on 64k

[ItsallisnowaFeegle]

Both myself and DP work. We earn too much to claim any tax credits etc. Have DD 15, DS 17 weeks. We're struggling on my Mat pay & will struggle just as much financially and much more so emotionally on my return to work.

We both pay a decent lump into Tax & Nat. Insurance but you know what? Who the fuck am I to police HOW people spend their benefits? I really don't give a shit. I have my own worries and my own life to navigate.

I use my vote wisely and all I can say is I hope to fuck those who whinge about 'benefits scroungers' do too.

We live in a democracy people!