I'm disgusted by Osbourne jumping on the Phillpott bandwagon created by the DM

[aufaniae]

So, yesterday there was outrage after the pictures of dead children were used in the most cynical way by the Daily Mail to sell the idea that welfare "scroungers" are evil, with Phillpott branded a "vile product" of the benefit system by the DM.

What's our government's response today?

George Osborne, when asked about the claims, said a debate was needed about whether the state should "subsidise lifestyles like that". link

To add insult to injury, he was visiting Derby when he said this (which is where the children lived and died).

How fucking insensitive can you get?

[limitedperiodonly]

I heard that cross. Pamela Nash wasn't very good. She got overwhelmed. I didn't catch who she was but the researchers had more than 24 hours to come up with someone who could have argued better and they should have done. I hope they got shouted at.

Humphries was trying to help by guiding her towards a point. He was a bit like a disappointed teacher with a floundering pupil. He doesn't strike me as wildly Lefty. I think he just likes there to be an equal debate. Or maybe he hates that supercilious twat A.N. Wilson as much as I do.

[Viviennemary]

Three people are responsible for the death of these children. And not the Mail, the Welfare State or Osbourne.

[grovel]

It was speculated by the prosecution that Philpott chose his method of revenge on Lisa Willis (burning down the house) because:

it would get her in the frame
it would get him a better house
it would get him custody of the kids and associated income

The judge (sensibly IMO) limited her remarks to the fact that he was hell-bent on revenge.

[limitedperiodonly]

Daily Mail...risible and soiling

[SherbetVodka]

I don't think a meaningful discussion can be had about how it could have been prevented without mentioning the fact that the adults in the case were grossly abusing your benefits system

I don't really understand you. This discussion isn't about how Mick Philpott could have been prevented from killing his children. There is probably no way that any authority could have pre-empted and prevented it

[Molehillmountain]

Merry mouse-I noticed that too. She was on Jeremy vine yesterday and I thought "here we go, she's about to blame the welfare culture". But actually she spoke eloquently about the whole situation. A pleasant surprise.

[AnnieLobeseder]

YANBU. It's despicable on so many levels. Vile DM, vile George Osborne.

[twofingerstoGideon]

I don't think a meaningful discussion can be had about how it could have been prevented without mentioning the fact that the adults in the case were grossly abusing your benefits system. And that they were not unique in that.
Of course it can, because it is utterly irrelevant. I don't see how that's so difficult to understand.

And what on earth does your last sentence mean - "And that they were not unique in that,"? Even if other people do abuse the benefit system (and you might like to look at this before jumping onto that particular bandwagon) what bearing does would that have on the Philpott case?

[twofingerstoGideon]

Three people are responsible for the death of these children. And not the Mail, the Welfare State or Osbourne

...Isn't the point being made that the Daily Mail is trying to imply that the 'Welfare State' did play a part?' That certainly seems to be what their headline (and some posters on this thread) seem to be suggesting.

[hypnotizingchickens]

The weird thing about this is that all the welfare blood libel discourse has effectively stamped out a legitimate, mainstream discussion about abusive relationships in the family setting, and the gender dimensions of abuse.*

Even the judge in this case highlighted the role abuse, by a man/husband of a woman/wife, played in this crime in her sentencing.

So, here we are, on mumsnet , having a discussion that has been completely sidetracked by a heinous, politically fanatical discourse that masquerades as a rational discourse.

[merrymouse]

To assume that this man represents many benefits claimants you would have to assume that, in general, people can't be trusted to spend money on their children, that they only have children if those children bring in money, that they use contraceptives/are celebate if their children will earn them no money and that there are many people claiming benefits for 10 or more children.

Fine. Having them assumed that these people claim a significant amount of the total benefit sum, please, please, please could somebody explain what is to happen to the children of these households once benefits are cut, because at the moment the plan seems to be top secret.

[hypnotizingchickens]

The asterisk was supposed to link to the fact that legal aid is being withdrawn in divorce cases. Theoretically, it will remain for those who are victims of emotional or physical domestic abuse. But women (and it will be mainly women who are affected, as victims of abuse and as the poorer partners in marriage) will have to identify that they are abuse victims, be able to argue it (prove it), and not be too terrified to publicly announce it.

So there is a real agenda in interpreting this crime as some kind of "welfare crime".

[merrymouse]

Having then

[Twentytotwo]

I'm an atheist but I still want to believe in a special hell for people like Osbourne. Trying to gain political capital from violence and tragedy. As for talking about 'subsidis(ing) a lifestyle' , they were children. That's what the money was paid for. To feed them, house them and clothe them.

As a Tory he would rather children like them go hungry and homeless so as not to encourage their parents to make the decision to have them in the first place. Punishing the children for the decisions of their parents. But it would all be ok because charities would step in to fill the gap, for example food banks, many of which are now receiving local council funding (with the long term aim of being to be funded 100% by charitible donations) to replace the function of crisis loans which they're phasing out. Big Society at it's best. Next will come the clothes donations ...

[SherbetVodka]

please, please, please could somebody explain what is to happen to the children of these households once benefits are cut, because at the moment the plan seems to be top secret

I wouldn't be surprised if a modern version of the workhouse system is implemented within the next 20 years.

[Nancy66]

what about a special kind of hell for people who burn their kids alive?

[WhinyCrabbyPeople]

George Osbourne was undoubtedly being besieged with questions about benefits given that Philpott was a prolific user of the system.

Regarding the original rag headlines though, quite honestly you'd have to be a complete numpty to think that because the papers point out MPs 'occupation' that that means all benefits users or all people that live below the poverty line or all people that have fallen on hard times are morally dubious. If it had been a doctor, a banker or any type of gainfully employed person there surely would have been similar questions and judgements about how someone could have funded such a lifestyle and whether that lifestyle had any bearing on the crime. 17 children and two 'wives' (?) is very unusual and...bloody expensive! How were those kids taken care of? How did nobody notice or care?

[hypnotizingchickens]

Anyone who'd like to make it clear to the Mail (and via them, Mr Osborne) that this is unacceptable, there's a thread for action here

[aufaniae]

TheCalvert

I agree it would be great if "men like Philpott be kicked into touch and not benefit from the state, when their partners have any and all assistance available to them to get to safety"

This would be a debate if we had a humane, compassionate government.
I seriously doubt that this is the debate which is being proposed however.

IDS previously proposed a two-child cap on benefits, which Osbourne supported. It was quashed by the LibDems. I strongly suspect that it is this which Osbourne wants debated.

In other words, one deeply disturbed psychopath sets light to his house and kills six of his children. The right then want to use this to discuss taking money from every family who has three or more children.

That's also deeply disturbing IMO.

[PeneloPeePitstop]

Sherbet what will happen is that they will starve, which will be ok by the contingent on here who believes these kids are bred to be parasites on the taxpayer.

These same people believe my defectives should be euthanised after all, as they're parasites.

I don't understand how some here can't see defecating on these kids' graves to make a political argument completely irrelevant to their deaths is so awful.

[Twentytotwo]

This article is from last August. It's about local councils moving to set up/support food banks as crisis loans are scrapped. Add to this the impact of the bedroom tax. It's truly shocking.

I think it would be good to have another 'personal experiences of the cuts' thread. Not for debate, just for those who are being hit by this to tell their side of things.

The right wing media and the government are demonising those on benefits and now even trying to twist the case of a violent, abusive killer and the deaths of six children to support their agenda. Let people see the real people who are being hurt by these cuts.

[aufaniae]

Wossname Thanks!

[PeneloPeePitstop]

Personal experiences? I've recounted a few elsewhere.
Since I've been given a reprieve from Bedroom tax under the severely disabled child criteria the 'only' cash loss is £54 a week from tax credits.

Other losses... My self respect, self esteem. My brother, sister and nephew who all believe the rhetoric.

Real life physical and verbal abuse, spitting and criminal damage of a motability vehicle. Pure venom on here.

Because I'm considered somehow sub human because of the special kind of benefit scrounging scum that I am.

[Anifrangapani]

I find the drip drip drip of dehumanising rhetoric in the right wing press, MPs and commentators very worrying. Osbourne may back peddle on these comments, the DM may issue an appology, but it will leave a lingering stench. Say it often enough and lies are believed as truths.

[Twentytotwo]

I'm so sorry PPP. That's exactly what I mean. To deliberately link the actions of someone who did such terrible things to the fact that he was living off benefits and go as far as suggesting that it's a causal link is repulsive. It is blatantly untrue and is part of a deliberate attempt to demonize those in receipt of benefits.

The Conservatives are using the cover of necessary budget cuts to slide through an ideological agenda that seeks to demolish the welfare state.