Judge in late abortion case linked to conservative Christian charity

[HoleyGhost]

" A judge who criticised UK abortion policies while sentencing a woman to eight years in prison for performing her own abortion at a late stage in her pregnancy is one of at least five members of the judiciary with links to a Christian charity which has campaigned for more conservative abortion laws."


Thought this deserved a thread of its own.

[Rowanhart]

I'm sorry but these cases are not comparable simply because they are both late abortions. Crimes where the defendant is charged with the same thing can be vastly different.

The circumstances, background and the way they killed their babies was totally different.

Does no one think that if she was truly remorseful and if she hadn't killed the baby after it was born, she'd have revealed where it was? Does the fact she did not merit some form of stronger sentence?

I am sure she does have issues. Don't we all. But does that mean she didn't know what she was doing was wrong? Of course she did. Unless she was a sociopath. In which case there are a lot of murderers out there who should receive a lighter sentence on the same basis.

There seems to be a lot of people who are unwilling to accept that she knew what she was doing. Perhaps it is too shocking to us. But At point to we decide that there is no need for punishment? Most killers clearly have mental health issues.

I'm about as liberal leftie as they come and I think no prison sentence would have been appropriate in the first case. In this cae following extrnsive psychiatric reports thry found she was not mentallyy I'll. I just can't see how people are saying these cases bear any similarity other than on a very simplistic level.

[Nigglenaggle]

But... she was 38 weeks - why not have the child adopted?? She'd had more than enough time to sort it out earlier if she didnt want the child and it seems to be only her not wanting to deal with people finding out that caused her to do it. No sympathy. The custodial sentence isnt there to help her. Its to punish her for killing her child and deter others. I am definitely pro-choice, but this is clear cut for me. Honestly find it mind blowing that people feel its unjust.

[Nigglenaggle]

The views of the judge are irrelevant if he passed a fair sentence, and in my view he did.

[Rowanhart]

Agreed Niggle.

[runningforme]

Agree with niggle too.

[pumpkinsweetie]

Also agree with niggle

[ReallyTired]

I suspect a female judge (who has had children) may well be tougher than a male judge. There are plenty of non christians who are anti abortion of a baby at full term.

Sara Catt has the right to appeal, but if this thead is anything to go by her appeal might back fire.

I agree with niggle too and I think that British law on abortions is just right.

[UnityMot]

"I'm sorry but these cases are not comparable simply because they are both late abortions. Crimes where the defendant is charged with the same thing can be vastly different."

Of course not, but...

Both women had previously carried pregnancies to term.

Both women had previously had a legal abortion.

Both women had become pregnant as a result of an extra-marital affair.

Neither woman appears to have had a recognisable mental health problem at the time of the termination.

Objectively-speaking the difference in viability of the foetuses at the point of termination is relatively small, a matter of 2-3% different in survival rates deapite the 8-9 week difference in gestational age - and in the case of Maisha Mohammed, all that is known is that the foetus was 30 weeks+, the exact gestational age in not entirely certain and could have been 2-3 weeks higher.

There are. in fact, far more points of similarity between these two cases than there are differences. so the question of comparability does not rest solely on their being late abortions.

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

There are points of similarity yes, and it's just as reasonable to argue that the previous sentence was too light as this one was too harsh.

The previous sentence is not a guideline.

[rhondajean]

Utterly irrelevant to our legal structure but interesting as the maisha Mohammed case is being compared.

What would the punishment be under Islamic law?

[domesticgodless]

Running I agree that the poor child deserves our compassion. But this woman is clearly highly disturbed. Without help she might do the same or similar again or just end up in the loony bin. That is not a good outcome for anyone.

I agree with others on the thread that the humane thing for her to do would have been to give birth to the child and then give it to social services, however remember we don't have the French system where a mother can renounce parental responsibility at birth. That's obviously what she was afraid of: the birth revealing her affair (although how on earth her husband didn't notice for 38 weeks is quite another point for speculation).

My main concern is the discrepancy now between our laws on infanticide, committed in very similar circumstances to late self- or backstreet- abortion. If this level of harsh sentencing is generalised to desperate women seeking backstreet abortions after the time limit, the law will quite clearly be inhumane.

[domesticgodless]

god pumpkin is this really her 3rd unwanted child?!
the mind boggles eh.

[pumpkinsweetie]

Yep her 3rd!!!!

[domesticgodless]

what on earth happened to the other 2? Are they in care?

[pumpkinsweetie]

One was aborted and the other baby was adopted.

[runningforme]

domestic she killed the baby because she didn't want to be found out. Yes, those are the actions of a highly disturbed person. But isn't any murder (self defence aside) the act of a disturbed person? Should they all be given lenient sentences? It was not an abortion, late term or otherwise, if she induced labour and then did whatever she did before disposing of the body and refusing to reveal where it is. She deserves every second of her sentence whatever the personal beliefs of the judge

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Running you cannot say definitively that she killed the baby as it isn't known if it was still born, killed by her or abandoned by her in some way.

[Juule]

We don't know whether she had help or not. Perhaps she's refusing to give details because she really doesn't know where the baby is and/or she is covering for someone who helped her. Who knows? All speculation.

[Juule]

Maisha Mohammed also didn't give the whereabouts of her baby and is also said not to have shown any remorse. Telegraph report

[edam]

Thanks Juule, that's very helpful. Wonder why the judge claimed the cases weren't comparable, then... (although it is worrying that Maisha Mohammed was married at the age of 14 and had her first baby aged 16).

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Sorry juule you are right, someone else may have taken or killed the baby.

[runningforme]

Why are some on here determined to downplay what this woman did? Despite what we do know for sure of her history and her actions in this pregnancy, some are determined to see only what they want to. I've asked before and I'll ask again, if anyone else had brought about the death of a full term baby, would you afford them the same unwavering defense?

[TheDoctrineOfSnatch]

Running it is because she was tried, pleaded guilty to and was convicted of the charge of taking a substance to procure a miscarriage. She wasn't tried on any other charge.

[NanaNina]

Running you ask why so many MNs are determined to downplay what this woman did and that to some extent is true. However on the other side of things there are man MNs who deplore what she did and express themselves quite forcibly, which of course is their right.

I think the debate started about whether the Judge was being impartial in judging this case, when he is a member of a christian anti- abortion group (or something similar) and not about the rights or wrongs of what the woman did. None of us know the first thing about this woman and her motives and yes she does appear to look irresponsible with past abortions/adoptions.

I don't feel in a position to judge one way or the other, and agree that on the face of it, her actions seem horrendous, but 8 years sounds to me to be a very heavy sentence, and I am still left wondering whether this judge was not judging the case impartially because of his own views.

[NanaNina]

I have just read the link on the Telegraph article on MM. She had a baby aborted at 7.5 months, and was given a 12 month custodial sentence, suspended for 12 months. Surely that must give weight to the notion that the Judge in the case under discussion was not acting impartially and was in fact judging the woman because of his own beliefs. This is not the task of Judges and is in my view potentially highly dangerous.

What happens if the mother in this case appeals will be very interesting.