To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

[bumbleymummy]

Why are you jumping to TV scans now SQ? Chances are by the time the abortion is being performed a traditional US scan would be enough and in those (exceptional) cases I can see why an exemption from a TV scan would be allowed. Maybe you should have asked me that straight out instead of beating around the bush.

[SardineQueen]

Spoons said upthread that scans would be transvaginal due to how early they are.

[bumbleymummy]

I am in the UK SQ. Would you like to tell me if you had your antenatal classes in the first trimester of pregnancy? I did say from the outset of their pregnancy.

[bumbleymummy]

Only before 8 weeks iirc. I think they can use traditional US after that.

[SardineQueen]

In 2004 in the UK, 87% of abortions were performed at 12 weeks or less.

[SardineQueen]

We are talking about whether pregnant women should be told the risks. You say no, on the basis that the things that are risky may not happen. Presumably on that basis you would not support these risks being discussed at any stage of pregnancy.

Why don't you want pregnant women to be told about the risks of pregnancy?

[kelly2000]

Bumbley,
But you said women should have an informed decision. How can they make an informed decision about whether or not to have an abortion if they are not told the risks of pregnancy? And if a woman is pregnant then she has no choice but to consider continuing with the pregnancy or having a termination, so she should be told the risks of both options. You cannot say you will not tll her the risks as you do not start out telling her all the risks of c-sections. And if she was deciding whether to have a c-section, epidurial I would expect she would be told all the risks involved, and the risks of the alternatives. You cannot claim to believe in informed consent to such an extent you would force a fourteen year old rape victim to undergo a transvirginal scan against her consent and be forced to look at a picture of a foetus whilst it is described to her, but then say you would not tell her about the risks of staying pregnant as it is not a medical procedure so the risks of illness and death can just be skipped over.
And no you have been side steeping the questions.

[SardineQueen]

87% before 12 weeks.

So given that it takes a couple of weeks at least to get this all sorted out, we will be looking at transvaginal scans for a majority of women and girls.

Anyone who would force a woman or girl to have something inserted into her vagina against her will is not worth engaging with.

[bumbleymummy]

how many are performed pre 8 weeks where the woman was raped SQ?

[kelly2000]

Even later in a pregnancy they cannot always using normal USS and have to have transviginal scans.

[bumbleymummy]

I am saying they don't need to be told them from the outset. If they are considering a medical procedure eg c-section then they will be told the risk of that.

[kelly2000]

It does not matter how many, the fact that a rape victim could be forced to do anything against her will shows how low the anti-abortionists will stoop.

[SardineQueen]

So you would advocate forced trans-vaginal scans for women and girls who have not been raped?

Bloody hell.

I have no idea how many rape victims have abortions prior to 8 weeks. Do you? Given that the vast majority of rapes are not reported to the police / prosecuted, I suspect that it would be rather hard to find the figure out.

[kelly2000]

Pregnant women do not need to be told the risks of continuing with the pregnancy from the outset! of course they do the later it is left to tell them, theless time they have to decide to have an abortion. You say women should make informed choices, but they need to have choices in order to make a choice. refusing to tell them the risks of pregnancy straight away is wrong especially as they would got told the risks of abortion straight away.

[itisnearlysummer]

I had a termination 17 years ago. I was 20, on the pill and incredibly fastidious about taking it. There were many reasons for me not going through with the pregnancy. Some of them included:

I didn't want an unplanned pregnancy/child and for them to have to make do with the life I could have offered them at the time.

I had a difficult childhood/teenage years due to problems at home and needed some time to find out who I really was - a mature and responsible mother that would not have made.

I did not want to be a mother and I did not want a child. He didn't not want to be a father and he did not want a child - it would have made no difference to my feelings had he felt differently, but might have complicated the decision.

We took reasonable precautions to prevent pregnancy and it didn't work. I did sit down and consider my options carefully and alone, because I was the only person who knew my circumstances, my life and essentially because, whatever support a stranger in a room offered/advised was available, the child and I would have been the ones who lived with it day to day. And I waived between thinking I had to do it to I couldn't possibly do it.

I do regret being in the position where I had to make the decision. I categorically do not regret the decision I made.

The fact is real counselling should be available to those people who feel they would benefit from it, but not forced upon people who don't as a means of coercing them into making a decision that is not right for them.

Perhaps some people do need more counselling or support in the process, but that still doesn't mean that the right decision for them would have been to continue the pregnancy.

[SardineQueen]

How are you going to decide whether the women and girls are telling the truth that they have been raped bubbley? Will you take them at their word or will proof be required? What form would that proof take?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. We're going to move this thread to In the News - where it really belongs.

Apols that we didn't do so aeons ago...

[bumbleymummy]

ok kelly so you are just talking about women who are seeking advice about whether or not they should have an abortion/continuing with the pregnancy rather than ALL pregnany women? As chandellina pointed out a few pages ago - they wouldn't need to be informed about it because it is not a medical procedure and those things may not happen whereas the abortion actually WILL happen if they choose it so they need to know about it. Same as if they HAD to have a section - then they would be told the risks.

[EvenLessNarkyPuffin]

Bumbleymummy, you are against all abortion unless pregnancy would kill the mother aren't you. So why try to pretend that you care about the women making an 'informed decision'? You want her to decide not to terminate the pregnancy.

[bumbleymummy]

"So given that it takes a couple of weeks at least to get this all sorted out, we will be looking at transvaginal scans for a majority of women and girls."

The scan is carried out just before the abortion afaik - so do you know how many of those abortions are before 8 weeks when the TV scan would be used?

Kelly - i have never heard of TV scans being used to view the baby at late stage pregnancy - so you have examples of when/why it would be used?

[bumbleymummy]

kelly - like the fact that she was forced to have sex against her will in the first place? Ensuring that she is making the right decision is surely even more important - not all rape victims want to abort you know.

[michelleseashell]

It most certainly isn't only before eight weeks. I had that type of scan at nearly eleven weeks when I had a miscarriage scare. I'm quite slender too so I imagine you could get a clearer picture than most through the traditional scan method.

[bumbleymummy]

You were the one talking about specific cases SQ - I'm not sure how many abortions are performed pre-8 weeks given how many people seem to be complaining about the delays.

[WilsonFrickett]

To be fair it probably is time to nail your colours to the mast. You support this amendment because you believe it will reduce abortions - as does ND, not because you believe the majority of pregnant womens' experience of counselling fell short. I think most of the pro-choicers in the thread have been very clear on their agenda. You have not. Much like the counselling that will be provided by anti-abortionists, I fear.

And my sincere sympathies to the poster upstream who wasn't offered counselling and who did regret her decision.