where's the thrtead about the green paper on sen? Statements to go?

[grumpypants]

got to go to work, but are we discussing this? Link please if we are?

[auntevil]

Maypole - i think that you may be being mislead by the press and the mis-use of language/context with this issue. As Silverfrog said - 1 in 5 applies to those who have been 'flagged' by the school as having either SN or SEN issues - or needing extra support in one small area. Some of these may be temporary issues and some permanent.
In this country we start education at a ridiculously early age. Some children are just not ready for the environment that they are thrown into. Some of these children just need a little bit more time to adjust. Rather than berating parents, perhaps we should also look at the rigidity of the education system that does not allow difference to be celebrated. There is no one education system that fits all. Not everyone learns in the same way.
Attitudes in this country need to change first before any reforms suggested will make any impact

[BakeliteBelle]

Maypole, my son has very severe learning disabilities and he is completely appalling at home, yet butter wouldn't melt in his mouth in many other (but not all) settings. 'He's no trouble', the respite carers cry, yet at home he'll wallop me and scratch and pinch and head butt me if in the mood. I don't know why. I am not a drug addict, I am fairly consistent, I try to discipline him and entertain him and be a good parent.

It is not uncommon for children with 'issues' to present well to outsiders for as long as they can keep it up.

Granted, there are poor parents and, more worryingly, charming, manipulative, personality-disordered parents who pull the wool over teachers/ social workers eyes. However, just because you've observed children behaving well with you does not mean that if they came to live with you full time, they would continue to be angels

[Triggles]

I mentioned at a playgroup last year that I wish children started school at 5 instead of 4, and by the looks I got, you'd think I'd suggested mass homicide or something. I still think 4 is too young.

[Mumfun]

Ignoring Maypole here too.

Triggles Im with you on the school starting age. I think parents should have a choice!!Kids are ready for different things at different times - you should be able to start your child at 4 - but wait another year if you think that would benefit your child.

[Mumfun]

Found this useful analysis and background:

thoughcowardsflinch.com/2011/03/09/5443/

[grumpypants]

thanks mumfun. Am going to plough thro the next bit of the green paper. what do you all think about the streaming of sen into one 'label' rather than using sa and sa plus?

[tomburkard]

Silverfrog is quite right to point out that only a small percentage of children who are designated as 'special needs' have statements. But the biggest con is that schools can spend the extra funds they get for statemented children in any way they wish. When I taught special needs at a Norwich comp, some kids with statements got no extra help at all. And there was a good reason for itthey refused it. There's not a lot you can do with a bolshie teenager who tells you to sod offor at least not the way our schools are run these days.

One thing that really needs clarification--relatively few special needs pupils (no more than 10% to 15%)have much wrong with them other than poor literacy skills. And that's where the SEN system fails miserably: instead of giving these kids effective literacy instruction, we have teams of professionals looking for excuses.

However, up in West DunbartonshireScotland's most deprived local authority, bar Glasgowschools have all but eliminated reading failure. Four years ago I had a meeting with teachers from most of their primary schools, and I've never met such a lot of switched-on, confident teachers. They were justly proud of their remarkable achievement. If only the professionals in England would take a leaf from Prof Tommy MacKay's book--he's the psychologist responsible for all this. And surprise, surprise, they have very low rates of SEN pupils with ADHD, etc.

[CrystalStair]

Tomburkard - I agree with you about some SEN children actually having poor literacy skills etc. I am governor of a small school with a very high percentage of SEN children (60% in one year). Only two are statemented. But the teaching staff feel there are children who shouldn't be described as SEN and there is a very strong feeling that the term has been over-ascribed in recent years.

I agree that school starting age might be significant in some of these cases. Also, that some of the children who do need more help have less time than they need because too many other children are gathered under the same inadequate umbrella term.

'Bad'parenting is something a lot of our children might be subject to. Some of our SEN children have highly motivated parents who are fully involved in the lives and education of their children. Some have parents who never turn up to discuss anything and, frankly, couldn't give a toss. But some of them have big issues too - it's impossible to generalise any more than you can about 'normal' children with a variety of types of parent...

[majordanjarvis]

I think Maypole raises some interesting points.

It's telling that some posters on here are responding in the way that they are. Defensiveness is often an indicator that a poster knows their adopted 'reality' has been exposed as a sham.

"ADHD" and the 'chemical cosh' are some of the worst developments in recent years. Aldous Huxley would be spinning in his grave!

[amberleaf]

Oh do fuck off!

[mariamagdalena]

My ds has an autistic spectrum disorder and ADHD. My parenting started out average but is now very effective. Because of more practice, more training, more criticism and more incentive to 'get things right'. I would hope that if he went to maypole's for tea, she would be amazed at how well trained he is.

20 years ago, I worked with children from a special school. Most were said to have 'mild brain damage', although a few had been removed from exceptionally abusive homes. Those children were just like my son, but the terms used have changed over the years.

My child genuinely has a moderate disability and significant special educational needs. Just like the kids I used to work with. But since that special school doesn't exist any more, he has to manage in mainstream. And I must be a bad parent who is being defensive about his bad behaviour and manufactured symptoms.

[grumpypants]

I think, for me, the interesting things are the attempts to the involve the voluntary sector in assessments and support - where does that leave the professionals? What if you are in London - fantastic or a tiny village - not so great if there's only a Cats Protection League shop... and the doing away with the stages of SEN. Also, the attempt to remove children from SEN - you need to really sure it's poor teaching to do that.

[grumpypants]

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you maria i just don't want to engage in the old mudslinging debate about naughty kids just having rubbish parents.

[AfternoonsandCoffeespoons]

It's telling that some posters on here are responding in the way that they are. Defensiveness is often an indicator that a poster knows their adopted 'reality' has been exposed as a sham.

Or maybe its just an indicator that they are fed up with being told time and time again that they are lying? That any problem with their child is their own fault? Trust me, if you hear that sort of thing often enough; if you're always fighting to be heard, you'd be feeling a bit defensive too

[fanjoforthemammaries7850]

Cant do anything but laugh at people who suggest the DXs of the SN parents on here are just an 'adopted reality' really,

[lisad123isasnuttyasaboxoffrogs]

do go and jump off your horse Maypole and come and live here with my 2 girls with autism, you have no clue love!

And sorry to say I have attended a consultation in Herts this week and things are going to be changed in a massive way, and its not for our benifit but for the benfit of their pockets!!

[auntevil]

To those that believe that medically diagnosed conditions - by highly trained professionals - such as ASD or ADHD - are on the increase due to 'bad parenting', could i also point out the following. Diagnosis of other medical conditions such as allergies, hayfever and asthma are also on the increase. If i had of realised that this too must be due to 'bad parenting' - i would have tried so much harder, rather than watch my son gasping for breathe.
The truth is that parents who are finding their babies/children's behaviour difficult to understand go to medical professionals to find answers and help in order to become better at parenting their children.
No, i am not naive. I live in an area of London that has the tag of a 'deprived' area. I see examples of bad parenting styles all around me. There has been, and always will be 'bad parenting' - and it will affect their access to education when they start school. Schools do need to work more intensively with these children.
I do not live in an adopted reality. My concerns over this paper are genuine. My DS has a dx of dyspraxia. He is a good student, works hard, academically bright - but struggles to write. If numbers are to be cut as to those that are on SA and SA+, will it affect the support that he is given? Will he be an 'easy' target to reduce numbers? What happens then? Does his OT and physio stop too? Will i have to apply for a statement in order for the treatment and exercises that he needs, that are currently given under the SA+? Or, as i have the sinking feeling will happen, he be 'signed off' and allowed to educationally suffer in order for the targets to be met? Which of course i would not let happen, so we would use the family budget to have the same service privately - which in the end is what i believe the ultimate target really is. Kerching kerching kerching.

[TheMaleyDail]

1. The percentage of children with statements of SEN is 2%.
   
   
2. Statements are statements of needs, not statements of funding. Very few statements come with funding. Most simply come with directions to the school about how they are to adapt their teaching.
   
   
3. The rare statements that come with funding, do not come with funding for the child, it is for the school, to spend as they see fit, included to pay off last years debts.
   
   
4. If the statement is written very carefully indeed, by having parents so incredibly switched-on with untold time to educate themselves and buy in legal advice (no your 'usual' low ability parent) then it is possible to have the statement written in such a way that the only way a school can fulfil it is by using the rare funds that the LA give, for that child only.
   
   maypole It is lovely to have your 'opinion' on this thread but try to be aware of the damage you can cause by puting forward arguements that have no evidence base.

[GKlimt]

Agree auntevil NICE guidelines for diagnosing & treating ADHD are very clear, now and have been for sometime. The guidelines take into account parenting strategies.

maypole aren't the children for whom you provide respite a very selected sample ? And your views biassed by this particular group of children. It's like someone working in child protection saying there's a lot of abusive parenting about

FWIW from my reading the green paper it's teachers not parents who are the current scapegoats for 'mis-classifying' SN.

[startail]

auntevil your concerns echo mine exactly, I have a bright dyslexic daughter, who's ability to get things down on paper falls woefully short of her understanding. At present the high-school SEN department are able to give her an hour a weeks literacy help and a social mentor,
The later is probably the most valuable because, like many dyslexics, she was socially immature at primary and had no idea how to make friends. Although she's grown up a great deal, she still finds her self excluded and an easy target for petty, unpleasant bullying.
The school can't make people be friendly, nor sadly do much about teenage bitchiness, but at present the SEN dept. can provide a place to go and someone to talk to.
Clearly if the Green Paper is a backdoor way of justifying staff cuts, I fear that those who remain just won't have the time to help those like DD and auntevil's DS.

[grumpypants]

it's all happening by 2014 as far as i can see- the main changes will be a streamlining of school action and sa plus into one assessment, and combining the assessments into a 'plan' for the most 'needy' (for want of a better word, sorry) rather than a statement. and better choice of schools, but i can't see what the difference is. not sure what i think - do have concerns over how they will reduce the sen fig$ures.

[auntevil]

Yes, i think these are my concerns grumpypants. How are they going to massage the figures to show whatever it is that the government want to show.
I think that if the real issue was to streamline the whole process for the benefit of the child - and parent - with early diagnosis and interventions, then they would not be looking to 'reduce' the numbers that fall into the category of needing extra support.
Regardless of the reason behind any additional need, if a school believes that extra help is required to push a child along to try to reach an accepted level for their peer group, then they have educational needs. Skimming the numbers receiving help will not mean that the numbers needing help have disappeared, they just won't achieve. How does this help UKplc exactly.